Bob sits down with Kitboga for a humorous and enlightening conversation.
And they’d just hang up, right?
(MUSIC SEGUE)
[00:00:49] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam.
Im your host, Bob Sullivan.
And then after stealing your time, they steal your money.
And sometimes, he spends two, five, even 10 hours on the phone with these criminals.
That’s all time they can’t be stealing from the rest of us.
It’s called scam baiting.
Along the way, Kitboga has become much more than a viral celebrity.
He’s wasted years worth of criminals' time.
Here’s my talk with Kitboga.
[00:02:46] Kitboga: My name is Kitboga.
[00:03:35] Kitboga: If, if it was Apple1234, now that’s easy.
[00:03:47] Kitboga: Oh shoot.
Oh God not again, not again.
[00:03:49] Scammer: Its the same for everyone.
[00:03:51] Kitboga:.
For your security, God, I, I this happened to me once before.
[00:03:55] Kitboga: This isn’t a normal bank though.
They’re playing the password game.
[00:04:00] Scammer: you’re gonna wanna reset your password.
[00:04:13] Kitboga: Guess I bet, I bet a robot can’t guess that password.
You’ve got to be smart.
[00:04:17] Kitboga: Your password must include a two-letter symbol from the Periodic Table.
What the heck is that?
[00:04:22] Scammer: It should be Na.
[00:04:25] Kitboga: That’s…
[00:04:25] Scammer: Na.
[00:04:38] Scammer: Moon as an emoji.
Where they can get the emoji, maam?
[00:04:42] Kitboga: That is a good question, your guess is as good as mine.
[00:04:45] Kitboga: Oh, look.
So it’s autocompleting.
[00:04:48] Bob: This is a fairly crazy way to spend your time.
How did you get here?
But it started off small.
It’s just something I was passionate about.
I heard about tech support scams probably 7 years ago.
And that was this kind of spark of maybe I could do something about it.
Maybe I could investigate or tell people about it.
Kitboga is a professional, and now has a whole staff.
Figured out how to call scammers without using my actual phone number.
And all the, I, I kind of knew I had to obfuscate some of that.
But I also was just talking to my friends about it a lot.
But they, they said, “Okay, stream it.
Put it on Twitch.TV so we can watch instead of just telling us all these stories.
We want to, we want to like see it.”
And I didn’t know.
And there were like 20 or 30 people there all of the sudden.
I don’t people to know who I am.
Why are people here?
Like it was a very unexpected moment where like why are there all these people watching me?
And it kind of grew from there.
Like oh, okay.
But some things haven’t changed since he got started about 6 years ago.
[00:08:44] Bob: The disguise has not become much more sophisticated though, it seems.
[00:08:46] Kitboga: (chuckles) No, not really.
Sometimes I put a wig on just for fun.
But, uh… yeah.
[00:08:59] Kitboga: Yeah.
[00:09:01] Bob: And he doesn’t disclose his real identity.
[00:09:06] Bob: Now where does the name Kitboga come from if you might tell me?
And its name was Kitboga.
I think I misread it.
I did not know.
I just thought it was funny, and it sort of accidentally became my brand now.
[00:10:25] Bob: Aha.
It was in your blood.
[00:10:27] Kitboga: Yes.
But I, it was sort of like that.
[00:11:09] Scammer: I’m sorry, you wonder if I do any what?
[00:11:12] Kitboga: Do, do you sing at all, Patrick?
[00:11:14] Scammer: Oh yes, I do.
And uh, I listen to any kind of music and I sing any kind of music.
On camera he pulls out a guitar.
[00:11:42] Kitboga: Okay, you like, you like a country music at all?
[00:11:45] Scammer: Right, yes.
John Denver, and everyone, yeah.
[00:12:04] Scammer: Sorry, which one you said?
[00:12:06] Kitboga: It’s called the Boot Scootin' Boogie.
You heard that one?
Have you heard that one?
[00:12:20] Scammer: Oh you’re playing guitar.
It’s a, it’s a passion of mine too.
[00:13:10] Scammer: Right, uh sir, can you press yes on the computer?
[00:13:13] Bob: And yes, eventually Kitboga gets to do his duet.
You wanted to just run, run a scan or something?
Don’t worry, okay?
[00:13:35] Kitboga: All right.
Yeah, I mean it looked like it’s going to take a minute.
Maybe we could make a run at uh, sing that chorus one more time.
What do you think, Patrick?
[00:13:43] Scammer: Sure, but I don’t know the lyric, sir.
You, you go ahead and sing.
[00:14:08] Scammer: Get down, turn around, go to town.
[00:14:10] Kitboga: Boot scootin' boogie.
(laughter)
[00:14:29] Kitboga: All right, yeah, like that.
Now I’m going to add the guitar this time.
So we’re going to go…
[00:14:33] Scammer: Sure.
[00:14:35] Kitboga: Here we go, here we go.
[00:14:48] Scammer: Ha-ha.
This is nice, sir.
[00:14:51] Kitboga: Patrick I, yeah, you have a beaut–, pretty good voice.
[00:14:53] Bob: That clip is from 2017.
Kitbogas production and his sense of humor and his staff have only grown since then.
And his audience has grown right along with him.
How does that feel?
[00:15:50] Kitboga: It’s um, sometimes it’s very surreal.
[00:16:05] Bob: Well, persons.
The number of fake voices Kitboga uses actually entire personalities is rather staggering.
And they’d just hang up, right?
Yeah, um, so this is the “original Edna sound.
It would be something like this.
So that’s what I think of.
So she technically is a, she’s a doctor.
Well she says she’s a doctor anyway.
“I had a theoretical degree,” is, is what she says.
So there’s, yeah, it’s, it’s a whole world.
[00:19:48] Bob: That was fantastic, by the way.
[00:19:55] Kitboga: I appreciate it.
[00:20:07] Bob: Why does Kitboga have all these well-developed characters?
[00:20:12] Kitboga: Really, just to, well I guess it’s two-fold.
I could extend the time.
They’re talking to me.
So sometimes I got to, I got to talk.
I got to fill time, so I’ll tell stories.
The other thing about it is I think it makes my character more believable.
And that’s kind of a, a cue that I know Ive done a good job.
[00:21:30] Bob: Well they, they smell blood.
[00:21:32] Kitboga: Yeah.
[00:21:34] Bob: And your bait has been taken.
[00:21:36] Kitboga: Exactly, yeah.
[00:21:38] Bob: Hmm.
[00:22:02] Bob: Yes.
[00:22:17] Kitboga: A spark of an idea.
Yeah, it’s something to go off of, even if they’re mad.
Ah…
[00:22:50] Scammer: Ma’am, you are giving for your own.
I won’t get it.
I won’t get it!
I won’t get it!
[00:23:00] Kitboga: What do you mean?
[00:23:01] Scammer: Ma’am, what are you doing?
What are you doing???
[00:23:05] Kitboga: I’m adding this to your cash.
[00:23:06] Scammer: No!
No (beep) no!
Do not redeem that!!!!
Do not redeem that!
Do not redeem that!
[00:23:18] Bob: What’s the longest phone call you’ve had?
[00:23:36] Bob: Yeah, you’ve got to go the bathroom, I mean right?
[00:23:38] Kitboga: Right, yep, yeah, exactly.
So you know it, it adds up.
[00:24:00] Bob: Including, what do you say, can we try this again tomorrow?
I mean, is that how it goes?
[00:24:05] Kitboga: Basically, yeah.
Why does this technique work so well?
[00:24:18] Kitboga: I’m playing the perfect victim.
They say something like, let’s go buy some gift cards at, at Target.
And then I buy the gift cards and I, I come back.
Of course, I extend this through all kinds of improv ideas.
And I send them a picture of now I’ve just completely destroyed this Target card.
And so then I’ll say, well, it’s getting late.
I’m getting tired.
[00:25:40] Kitboga: I think so, yeah.
[00:25:46] Kitboga: Exactly.
[00:25:47] Bob: Some of the stall tactics he employs involve a lot of creativity.
And I’m telling him, like, “Lumber prices are really getting high.
And I’m, and I say, “Yes!”
And that’s an example of like, okay, what an absurd situation.
[00:27:29] Scammer: Good afternoon, am I speaking with Denver?
[00:27:32] Kitboga: I’m sorry, who is this?
[00:27:33] Scammer: This is the main processing center for your Ford F150.
How’re you doing today, Mr. Lewis?
[00:27:37] Kitboga: I’m doing well, how are you?
[00:27:39] Scammer: I’m doing okay for a Wednesday, sir.
[00:27:42] Scammer: Your new policy’s going to come, I have your email address.
It’s havethebestgoat@gmail.com.
[00:27:48] Kitboga: That’s correct.
“But apparently my grandpa character does.”
‘Cause they knew my fake address, fake email, and pretty much everything else about the character.
[00:28:06] Scammer: Okay, I lost you for a second.
I have to apologize sir.
So I have Denver F Lewis and then what is, are you still in Chicago, Illinois?
[00:28:15] Kitboga: 60652, baby.
I wasn’t talking about your mother.
Just send me the email and we can be done with this.
[00:28:54] Scammer: Mr. Lewis, I’m not giving you the policy sir.
I’m going to go ahead and I’m going to disqualify the vehicle, sir.
[00:29:00] Kitboga (woman’s voice): Why are you yelling so much, sweetheart?
[00:29:02] Kitboga: It’s cause this guy, it’s hard to explain.
[00:29:06] Kitboga (woman’s voice): What did you need about the car?
[00:29:10] Kitboga: Uh, the VIN, right?
[00:29:15] Scammer: The VIN number.
[00:29:17] Kitboga (woman’s voice): Okay, hold on.
[00:29:18] Kitboga: Yeah, for the, for the Ford, for the F150.
[00:29:26] Kitboga: What are you talking about?
[00:29:28] Kitboga (woman’s voice): We sold it.
We have a Prius.
[00:29:31] Scammer: Oh my gosh.
So that they’re not actually stealing money from somebody else.
[00:30:11] Kitboga: Yeah, yeah, a great question.
And, and I definitely started off with that goal in mind.
I still think that’s value–, valuable.
[00:31:35] Bob: Do you work with law enforcement?
It wasn’t like they answered this phone and fixed it, right?
So I mean it…
[00:32:06] Kitboga: No.
No, it was actually, that’s funny you bring that up.
It, it had to have been quite difficult in the beginning.
And I’d say, “No, I don’t.
So that, that’s really exciting too.
[00:34:35] Bob: That’s great.
And so this is so much more than uh some yucks or with some friends, right?
But it’s exciting.
It’s, it’s, I’m, I’m glad to be doing this.
And I could like super heat, like make a nuclear reactor.
There,” and he like genuinely believed that this was, was real life.
[00:36:46] Scammer: Oh.
Oh that is, that is fascinating.
He’s, he’s glowing now with this new opportunity.
And um, my basement is full of microwaves.
[00:37:58] Kitboga: Good question.
Because sometimes I don’t know if I know.
I am not a trained comedian.
I, I would, two things come to mind.
One, I, I think everyone, this has touched almost everyone.
It’s sad to say.
You don’t have to look very far to find, or you get the calls all day long.
You want to see the crashes.
And, and then this, like what’s going to happen now?
But, but the scammer does.
And I think that adds an extra level of comedy or, or funny stuff.
So the world is on this joke; this one person isn’t.
[00:40:46] Kitboga: Yeah, yeah that’s an interesting way to put it.
And they didn’t really get used and people didn’t really share them.
I don’t know if it’s like the merge of entertainment and education.
She’s at the bank.
She was about to wire $40,000 to, to someone.”
We’re having a good time.
[00:42:25] Bob: Does Kitboga ever get scared?
So I, I, I’m, I’m not as concerned about that.
One, the online world scammers are not, are, it can be scary.
I also do make some scammers angry.
So I take a stab at be careful.
You really could get hurt or hurt someone else.
[00:44:16] Bob: This is your, your fulltime life now, right?
[00:44:18] Kitboga: Yeah.
[00:44:24] Kitboga: Probab–, maybe somewhere in 2018.
And now it’s 2023, and I imagine I’ll just keep going for the foreseeable future so.
So my team and I built a trap that would keep them occupied, even while I sleep.
[00:45:53] Welcome to Easy Send automated system.
Our award-winning platform is set up to allow anyone with a code to easily withdraw and manage funds.
[00:46:02] Kitboga: The concepts pretty simple.
They’ve already won.
[00:46:23] Just one last thing.
How would you rate your experience today?
[00:46:27] Scammer: (screams) AHHHH!!!!
[00:46:30] Kitboga: That guy has spent over 5 days playing.
[00:46:32] Kitboga: I was not expecting that.
[00:46:34] Kitboga: That’s five times 24.
We’re talking real life days.
[00:46:52] Kitboga: Yeah, I can think of a, a few things.
You have to listen.
You have to act right now.
I always tell people too, to be really careful about allowing someone to connect to your setup.
So certainly, not allowing someone to do that is like a really major priority.
[00:48:44] Bob: But, he says, relying on education isn’t enough.
So he’s working on software that can help too.
It’s a scam.”
it’s crucial that you step in and help.”
you might’t really give people advice and expect them to follow it 99.99% of the time.
The idea of a sort of anti-virus software but for scams is, is super interesting.
You know, this is an exception to that software."
But if, if by then youre already calling mom, that helps a ton.
Uh, now, now turn your machine off and let’s head to the bank," right.
And I, I’m just having trouble leaving.
I don’t know how to get out."
“Well, you haven’t scammed anyone yet.
And I gave you $1000 worth of equipment.
Even if you want to leave, there, there’s like this issue now.”
And they get, they’re fear–, fearful of their own life.
So it’s tough.
It’s, it’s a bummer.
[00:54:55] Kitboga: Oh, wow.
Just don’t talk to online criminals.
When you get a call you don’t expect, just hang up.
Don’t engage in any way.
That’s the best way to protect yourself and your loved ones.
Call the AARP Fraud Watch internet Helpline at 877-908-3360.
Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next.
That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org.
Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
For AARP’s The Perfect Scam, I’m Bob Sullivan.
