[00:00:04] Kathy Tipp: Oh my God.
You’re kidding me?
I won this grand prize of $3.5 million, a new Mercedes, and $7000 for life.
[00:00:17] Kathy Tipp: Oh yeah, I had to sign a uh, a non-disclosure agreement.
[00:00:22] Bob: Oh, what was that for?
[00:00:23] Kathy Tipp: So I couldn’t talk.
You know how it was for me to keep this thing a secret for months?
I couldn’t tell anyone.
I didn’t tell my daughter.
(MUSIC SEGUE)
[00:00:38] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam.
I’m your host, Bob Sullivan.
Well, all that name recognition and all those dreams create an opportunity for criminals.
[00:01:49] Bob: When did that start?
So it started in about 2017.
[00:01:59] Bob: That’s a long time to be taking care of your husband.
[00:02:01] Kathy Tipp: Yeah.
And he, he goes to a geriatric doctor who we love, and he’s on many meds.
He also has a heart doctor.
He’s on a lot of meds.
Kathy has won the Publishers Clearing House Sweepstakes.
[00:02:36] Bob: So, so she introduces herself as from Publishers Clearing House.
Had you heard of Publishers Clearing House?
[00:02:41] Kathy Tipp: Oh, of course I have.
[00:02:43] Bob: So what was your first thought?
[00:02:45] Kathy Tipp: Was like, oh my God.
You’re kidding me?
I won this grand prize of $3.5 million, a new Mercedes, and $7000 for life.
How could this happen, right?
[00:02:58] Kathy Tipp: Yeah.
How could this happen?
Oh, I was going to help my daughter and my grandkids, you know, go to college.
And Tunnels to Towers, and St. Jude.
I was going to be able to help a lot of people.
Maybe even some of my friends who weren’t as able to be retired.
She has to buy a gift card.
[00:03:43] Kathy Tipp: That’s right.
And then she says, “Don’t hang up the phone.”
[00:03:46] Bob: Oh, okay.
[00:03:55] Bob: Where did you get the gift card?
[00:03:56] Kathy Tipp: Oh, Walmart.
[00:03:56] Bob: You went to Walmart.
And how much was it for?
[00:03:59] Kathy Tipp: $500.
[00:03:59] Bob: $500.
And then you’re on the phone with her.
You get back to the car.
You read her the numbers.
[00:04:05] Kathy Tipp: Right.
[00:04:18] Kathy Tipp: Oh yeah, Brandon Lewis, I’ll never forget that name.
[00:04:21] Bob: And he said he was from the Federal Trade Commission, right?
[00:04:23] Kathy Tipp: Correct, he was a Federal Trade Commission attorney.
And he was assigned to ensure I was treated fairly by Publishers Clearing House.
[00:04:31] Bob: What does that mean, treated fairly?
What did he say he had to do?
I mean what was his roll?
[00:04:35] Kathy Tipp: Exactly.
He had to manage the entire transaction.
Everything I had to pay to get the prize, which were taxes, well primarily taxes.
[00:05:04] Bob: He email you, I guess.
[00:05:06] Kathy Tipp: Yes, he did.
[00:05:17] Bob: Did he, did he explain why?
[00:05:19] Kathy Tipp: Not really.
[00:05:25] Kathy Tipp: Oh, are you kidding me?
Oh yeah, I had to sign a uh, a non-disclosure agreement.
[00:05:30] Bob: Oh, what was that for?
[00:05:31] Kathy Tipp: So I couldn’t talk.
[00:05:33] Bob: Hmm.
[00:05:33] Kathy Tipp: And then he had me sign other agreements.
But this time Kathy will have to pay via bitcoin.
[00:05:47] Bob: Had you ever used a bitcoin ATM before?
[00:05:49] Kathy Tipp: Never, it scared the crap out of me.
[00:05:51] Bob: Well what was it like?
I don’t know how to do it.
He sent me a link for the, his bitcoin thing.
And I felt like a criminal.
[00:06:13] Kathy Tipp: Yes.
[00:06:14] Bob: Oh, it sounds horrible.
[00:06:15] Kathy Tipp: Yes.
And I couldn’t, I hated every moment of it.
[00:06:33] Bob: So you go to bed that night, how are you feeling?
[00:06:36] Kathy Tipp: How was I feeling then?
[00:06:37] Bob: Yeah, that first night, after all this happens?
How are you feeling?
PCH is going to reimburse you for every dollar you spent.”
Well…
[00:06:49] Bob: I mean were you, were you excited?
[00:06:50] Kathy Tipp: Sure I was excited.
Then he asks for another payment of $35,000.
[00:07:33] Kathy Tipp: I had; my planner had set up these annuities for me.
[00:07:36] Bob: Ah.
[00:07:48] Kathy Tipp: No, I got about $3000 a month.
[00:07:51] Bob: Okay, great.
[00:07:52] Kathy Tipp: Yeah.
So that, with Social Security, that was a pretty decent income.
How long had you known him?
[00:08:05] Kathy Tipp: Oh my advisor?
At least 25 years.
[00:08:06] Bob: Oh wow, okay.
[00:08:12] Bob: So he knows the whole family.
So he, he says,
[00:08:13] Kathy Tipp: Yeah, and friend.
[00:08:15] Bob: He says, “I don’t like this, something sounds wrong.”
[00:08:18] Kathy Tipp: That’s right.
[00:08:19] Bob: And what, what do you say?
She starts mailing more checks to addresses he supplies.
[00:08:34] Kathy Tipp: On 10/13 there were two $50,000 checks.
[00:08:37] Bob: Ooh boy, wow.
November 10th, here’s a 50,000.
November 10th, here’s a 49,000.
Oh, January 8th, 40,000.
I couldn’t tell anyone.
I didn’t tell my daughter.
[00:09:08] Bob: Keeping something a secret like that is terrible.
[00:09:11] Kathy Tipp: I thought I was going to make your life better.
I was going to pay off your mortgage.
I was going to help your life.
[00:09:36] Bob: Wow.
[00:09:38] Kathy Tipp: Everything I had.
[00:09:40] Bob: And now no more $3000 checks every month, right?
[00:09:42] Kathy Tipp: That’s right.
All I have is Social Security.
And Brandon helps her figure out how to come up with a little bit more cash.
I’m, sure I have.
I’m not doing it.
So he said, “Well call this company.”
That’s all the lender will give her.
But that’s not enough, Brandon says.
So he’s another idea.
[00:10:28] Kathy Tipp: He had me buy jewelry.
He, I actually let him talk to my husband, because I didn’t have the money.
So it was to the tune of $33,000.
So I’m in debt for that with my credit card.
[00:11:04] Bob: You bought the jewelry with a credit card.
[00:11:06] Kathy Tipp: Well, my part.
The other part that John had to finance was money from his account.
He sent a, um, a wire transfer to them.
[00:11:15] Bob: Oh wow.
[00:11:15] Kathy Tipp: Yeah.
And around this time Brandon just stops contacting Kathy.
[00:11:38] Bob: …lonely and isolating.
[00:11:39] Kathy Tipp: It was not easy.
Kathy decides to confide in her neighbor.
[00:12:16] Kathy Tipp: I finally gave myself permission to tell someone else.
[00:12:20] Bob: That, that conversation must have been, well what was it like?
[00:12:23] Kathy Tipp: I was crying.
[00:12:24] Bob: So is this a neighbor you, you are close to?
[00:12:27] Kathy Tipp: Yeah.
And she’s been, see I’m going to start crying now.
[00:12:32] Bob: That’s okay, that’s okay.
[00:12:33] Kathy Tipp: She’s been my, my godsend uh because of John.
So she’s been my big salvation here, ‘cause of John.
[00:12:50] Kathy Tipp: No, I couldn’t.
[00:12:52] Bob: Wow, hmm.
[00:12:54] Bob: So Kathy goes with her neighbor to the police.
[00:12:58] Bob: What–, what did they say when you got there?
He didn’t chastise me.
And then he said he was going to deal with the FBI.
[00:13:14] Kathy Tipp: Well my bank fraud detective, got me about a $1000 back.
[00:13:20] Bob: A thousand dollars.
[00:13:23] Bob: Kathy has sent the criminals around $700,000.
And what she got back was $1000.
[00:13:38] Bob: Wow.
[00:13:39] Kathy Tipp: For 48 years.
[00:13:40] Bob: Wow.
[00:13:41] Kathy Tipp: Yeah, and I had, you know, a decent retirement.
Now it’s gone.
[00:13:55] Kathy Tipp: It had, did not mention my name.
Just a story about a 73-year-old Troy woman who was scammed out of her entire retirement.
And she saw it on the news.
And he came out that morning.
[00:14:13] Bob: How did it feel telling your story to the journalist?
[00:14:15] Kathy Tipp: Watch it.
He says, “How did you feel?”
I said, “I’m devastated.”
Talking about the crime helps her in surprising ways, too.
But still, her life is now dramatically different.
[00:14:33] Kathy Tipp: Yeah, so I’ve run into a lot of nice people.
It’s not going to help me survive.
But I’m still going to get my nails done.
[00:14:49] Bob: You know what, certain things just have to get done.
[00:14:51] Kathy Tipp: Yeah, so I went to Great Clips.
[00:14:57] Bob: Um-hmm.
[00:15:04] Kathy Tipp: Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Oh yeah, for sure.
[00:15:06] Bob: And you’re thinking about going back to work?
The Becky she references here is our great producer, Becky Dodson.
But I’m back in the office now.
And your name crossed my desk that you haven’t gotten your prize."
Yeah, you think?
“I don’t have it, Susan.
I do not have it, I have nowhere to get it.”
And then I had to send them to someone in Texas.
And they were, no, California, sorry.
And so the next day I was supposed to get my prize as soon as they got the phones.
Oh yeah, (laughs).
Oh, how hysterical is that?
[00:17:07] Bob: And this was three weeks ago.
[00:17:09] Kathy Tipp: Yeah.
[00:17:10] Bob: When was the last time you spoke to this person?
[00:17:12] Kathy Tipp: Uh the day that the iPhones were supposed to arrive in California.
[00:17:21] Bob: Like August 1st or something like that?
[00:17:23] Kathy Tipp: Yeah.
[00:17:30] Kathy Tipp: That’s right.
Just cease all contact with these people.
But sometimes that’s easier said than done.
[00:17:55] Kathy Tipp: Yes.
[00:17:56] Bob: So you would just let these calls go to voicemail when they came?
[00:17:59] Kathy Tipp: Well actually, she stopped communicating.
And Brandon stopped communicating.
[00:18:19] Kathy Tipp: You’re right.
Well, in February, yes.
[00:18:28] Kathy Tipp: Right.
Oh, I was so, I was so tempted.
I was so frickin tempted.
[00:18:32] Bob: Of course, that’s what they prey on.
They acted like they cared.
[00:18:46] Kathy Tipp: Yeah.
Yep, it’s crazy.
[00:18:50] Kathy Tipp: Well yeah.
(laughs), I certainly do.
[00:18:51] Bob: Like you, you, you know the money’s never coming, right?
[00:18:53] Kathy Tipp: Oh yes, of course.
Oh, of course.
[00:18:57] Kathy Tipp: Right.
I think I need to get a job.
I mean I’m 74, and then I have this husband.
How am I going to go, how am I going to have a job?
He, he wouldn’t be able to handle it.
That, that always happens.
[00:19:20] Kathy Tipp: Oh, you think so?
[00:19:21] Bob: Yeah, so what will you do the next time she calls?
[00:19:24] Bob: I’ll say, screw you.
[00:19:26] Bob: But no, no-no-no.
You’re not even going to do that.
[00:19:28] Kathy Tipp: Oh, I’m not going to answer it.
[00:19:29] Bob: You’re not going to answer the phone.
[00:19:30] Kathy Tipp: Yeah, yeah.
[00:19:31] Bob: You’re just not going to answer the phone.
I’m not telling the truth.
[00:19:40] Kathy Tipp: Oh yeah, willpower.
[00:19:42] Bob: (chuckles) Right?
Willpower is hard for everybody, so you need a plan.
I want you to have the, the Fraud Watch web link phone number handy.
They are great people.
Most of them are volunteers.
[00:19:52] Kathy Tipp: Who?
[00:19:52] Bob: Mos–, The Fraud Watch web link.
[00:19:56] Bob: AARP, the phone call is free, all the conversations are free.
Most of the operators there are former victims of scams themselves.
[00:20:03] Kathy Tipp: Oh really?
[00:20:04] Bob: Yeah, so they’re very empathetic.
[00:20:05] Kathy Tipp: Fraud.
[00:20:06] Bob: And yeah, and I’m going to read you the phone number.
Do you have a pencil nearby or something.
[00:20:09] Kathy Tipp: I do, I do.
[00:20:11] Bob: The phone number is 877-908-3360.
[00:20:14] Kathy Tipp: Okay.
[00:20:21] Bob: Yeah, they’re there Monday through Friday, 8 am to 8 pm.
[00:20:32] Kathy Tipp: Okay.
[00:20:43] Kathy Tipp: Yeah, okay, okay.
They’re great at what they do.
As I mentioned, Kathy is still struggling, but she’s not alone.
The Publishers Clearing House fraud is pretty common lately.
So it’s so important you’re willing to talk.
[00:21:31] Kathy Tipp: Really.
[00:21:35] Kathy Tipp: Oh, what?
[00:21:36] Bob: Yeah.
[00:21:37] Kathy Tipp: Holy crap.
What do you want people to learn from hearing your story?
Don’t fall for it, especially if they want money.
[00:22:02] Bob: That’s the big thing, right?
[00:22:07] Kathy Tipp: Right.
[00:22:42] Bob: How frustrating is it for your brand when this thing happens?
[00:22:44] Chris Irving: Well, its incredibly frustrating for our brand.
But more frustrating for the consumer loss that we hear.
It’s Publishers Clearing House, Microsoft, I think even the FTC was up there.
But unfortunately, our name was up there as well.
This is not a case where imitation is flattery.
[00:23:08] Bob: First things first.
[00:23:17] Chris Irving: Yes.
Somebody, some people will tell us, “I got this call.
I didn’t enter, but they said I won.”
Well, it’s the old rule, first of all, you might’t win anything unless you enter.
We’re not telling you ahead of time.
We do award our prizes unannounced, just like you see in our TV commercials.
Social media might be one reason.
Criminals are reaching out to people using various instant message platforms, Chris said.
[00:24:45] Chris Irving: I think it’s a combination.
I think that’s where they can really, uh, do the most damage.
[00:25:59] Bob: Wow.
Have they used your name?
[00:26:11] Bob: Are you serious?
You got a scam letter with your own name in it?
[00:26:13] Chris Irving: I did.
[00:26:14] Bob: Wow.
[00:26:15] Chris Irving: I did.
Again, they’re just trying to establish legitimacy.
And once that hook is in, then the challenges become much higher.
[00:26:48] Bob: The scam has changed over time, Chris told me.
In terms of prevalence, you know, it ebbs and flows.
And again, not just using our name, but they’ll combine our name with the FTC.
They’ll combine our name with Microsoft.
They’ll combine our name with a celebrity.
No doubt about that.
It’s a scam.
These imposters would have to go somewhere else to do their trade.
And there have been arrests.
There have been convictions.
There have been, in some cases, money sent back to consumers.
It’s been spent for drugs or for some other cause, who knows what.
So we’ll send that directly to the FTC.
We will also then take a look at ourselves for our own trends.
In fact, so much that local crime gangs fight over the business.
And you’d say, what was the connection between violent crime and lottery scams?
We’ve worked with the Jamaican officials.
And so difficult to stamp it out altogether.
Increasingly though, we see a lot of the imposter contacts coming through Facebook and social media platforms.
It’s, it’s great.
I would think that technology would allow them to stop that and taking place before it’s posted.
So that’s a bit of a frustration.
You’ve certainly not heard from an illegitimate sweepstakes.
Do not send any money for any reason.
No tax, no fee, no payment.
If you win a Publishers Clearing House Sweepstakes, we want you to tell everybody.
Don’t do anything until you get your check.
Again, rip up the letter, don’t respond, hang up the phone.
Publishers Clearing House does not private message consumers.
If you’re getting a private message about a sweepstakes, it’s not going to be real.
It’s not from Publishers Clearing House.
And again, I, it sounds like a broken record.
But that record needs to be played as many times as possible.
[00:35:18] Bob: Don’t send money to win a prize, ever.
[00:35:33] Bob: I have an important question for you.
[00:35:35] Kathy Tipp: Sure.
[00:35:39] Kathy Tipp: I’m don’t know if I can say the words here.
I’m going to tell them to go “F” yourself.
[00:35:45] Bob: Nope, that’s not what you’re going to do.
[00:35:46] Kathy Tipp: Oh, I’m going to hang up.
[00:35:47] Bob: You’re not even going to hang up.
You’re just not even going to answer.
[00:35:49] Kathy Tipp: I’m not going to answer.
[00:35:54] Bob: No, well you could do that.
I’m going to call The Fraud Watch data pipe.
[00:36:02] Bob: Yes, exactly.
And the number is…
[00:36:04] Kathy Tipp: 877-908-3360.
[00:36:11] Kathy Tipp: Okay, great.
[00:36:12] Bob: ‘Cause they’re going to help you.
[00:36:18] Kathy Tipp: Okay, I will.
[00:36:19] Bob: All right.
That’s how they work.
[00:36:33] Kathy Tipp: Oh, I can’t wait.
I can’t wait.
I can’t wait.
[00:36:36] Bob: You’re not even going to answer, right?
[00:36:41] Bob: This is the ex-boyfriend you cannot talk to again, period.
[00:36:44] Kathy Tipp: Okay, okay.
[00:36:48] Bob: For The Perfect Scam, I’m Bob Sullivan.
Call the AARP Fraud Watch connection Helpline at 877-908-3360.
Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next.
That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org.
Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
For AARP’s The Perfect Scam, I’m Bob Sullivan.
