I’m you host, Bob Sullivan.
I hope we all know that victim blaming is a terrible thing to do.
But it’s even worse than you think.
And it is snowballing.
The Federal Trade Commission just announced that consumers reported a stunning $8.8 billion dollars in losses during 2022.
And even more stunning, that’s a 30% increase from the last year, 30%!
There’s still so much more work to do.
We like to think we’re doing some of that work here at The Perfect Scam podcast.
This April marks the 5th anniversary of The Perfect Scam.
I’m going to let you meet them by allowing them to introduce themselves.
Kate, why don’t you begin.
[00:01:56] Bob.
[00:01:57] Paul Greenwood: Hi, good morning, Bob.
Uh yeah, my name is Paul Greenwood.
[00:02:27] Bob: Doesn’t sound like much of a retirement, Paul.
[00:02:29] Paul Greenwood: I love it.
[00:02:30] Bob: Now, Mark, how about you?
[00:02:32] Mark Solomon: Hey, Bob.
Thanks for having me, and I’m Mark Solomon.
I’m President of the International Association of Financial Crime Investigators.
I spent 26 years in law enforcement doing mostly financial and fraud investigations.
They were simply targeted.
That message needs to get out more.
[00:03:04] Bob: Okay, Kate, I’m going to start this discussion with you.
Or “Where did you lose all that money?”
So explain to the listeners what happened.
I had been widowed for 14 years and never looked for another romance in my life.
I was not on a romance um, social media.
I was on Facebook and I got a friend request from someone who, the pictures were very handsome.
I’ve never accepted a friendship like that on Facebook.
It’s the only time I ever did, and it certainly changed my life.
Um, things continued back and forth for a while talking.
He became romantic very quickly, and I didn’t.
“How are things going, Sweetheart?”
And it was just so nice to hear because I have been alone for so long.
So I think that was part of what pulled me in.
But after we had talked for many months, he asked me for the first gift card.
And things just went from there.
I ended up losing $39,000.
And even showed me his bank account so that I could see he had money.
And of course, it was all a fake.
The one policeman said to me, “Why are you calling here?”
I wanted to just roll up in a ball and, and go hide in a corner.
Um, and she said, “You gave him this money willingly, Hon.
This is not a crime.”
I was more embarrassed by that, and just shut down again from hearing that.
“No one would ever be able to pull that on me.”
They don’t want to be looked down on.
Obviously, you need some kind of help because you’ve lost all this money.
And in my case, I was absolutely broke and had nowhere to go with that.
So it was tough for me to face people hoping that they would not talk to me that way.
Why would that happen?
[00:07:15] Paul Greenwood: Unfortunately, Kate’s experience is not isolated.
Now that sounds kind of illogical to most people, but it’s true.
That analysis should only be made by trained prosecutors who have actually filed fraud cases.
And the, the mistake that unfortunately that officer made was mistaking fraudulent misrepresentations with consent.
And, and this ha–, happens a lot, Bob.
A police officer will tell, tell somebody like Kate, “But you voluntarily gave that money.
You didn’t have somebody holding a gun to your head.
So there was no duress.
There was no violence, therefore, there’s no crime.”
[00:08:31] Bob: So Mark, you know, we’ve all been there.
“Your car was broken into?
Well, did you leave a bag in plain sight?
Must be your fault, right?”
So you know, that’s the message we have to get out.
[00:10:05] Mark Solomon: It is.
How could you be so stupid?
That’s just how it felt, that I was being put down.
How could you do this?
You didn’t even know him.”
Well, you weren’t sitting there listening to these conversations every day.
So I wanted to help him.
You know, it’s like the next story is coming up."
So there’s, I think, what we need to do is get enough information out.
But we need a lot more education I think.
Not only for law enforcement, for the general public as well, to understand how this happens.
This was a lot of money to you, right?
[00:12:16] Kate Kleinert: It was all I had.
I mean literally all I had.
I had my electricity turned off.
I was really in trouble financially.
I can’t imagine how that doesn’t make things so much worse.
But it’s a tough thing to go through because you feel the need to keep it to yourself.
[00:13:19] Paul Greenwood: Well yes, unfortunately it happens, I say all too often.
Thirdly, some law enforcement will say, “Well the crime didn’t occur here, Kate.
We don’t have jurisdiction.”
So those are typical responses.
How can we follow the money?
Can we identify this suspect?
Sometimes, Bob, also, people will look at the amount that was sustained in the loss.
And if we allow the suspect a free ride, then tomorrow he’s going to do it again.
So that’s why it’s important to focus on the suspects conduct rather on victim blaming.
So okay, Kate, let’s begin with the small.
So instead of these kind of cruel of things that you heard from some people, what worked better?
You don’t know what this is like.
So to pass that judgment is tough.
We have an obligation to investigate these crimes.
Just like Paul said, you oughta take that complaint.
you should probably follow-up on it.
And, and they, they don’t blame the victim, they blame the suspect.
Gather as many facts as you’ve got the option to on a timeline.
Did you send it through cash?
Did you send it through a bank wire transfer?
Did you send it through a bitcoin ATM machine?
What, what methods did you use?
And, and then for them to share that information with the federal prosecutors, ‘cause you never know.
Can you talk a little bit more about that?
The grandparent’s very upset, of course, and wants to help.
You are not making good decisions.
It’s time for you to go into the home."
So the older folks are afraid on several levels of trying to tell anybody about this.
So when they say, “How dumb could you be?”
I thought I was getting married again.
You know I thought I was going to have these kids in my life and what have you.
So it’s a much bigger loss than just the money.
[00:23:38] Kate Kleinert: Yes.
[00:23:44] Kate Kleinert: Right.
[00:23:45] Paul Greenwood: And Bob, that is exactly the experience I had so many times.
I, I do think the message is getting through to people.
The dollar values are, are going up.
Mark, what has to change?
[00:24:50] Mark Solomon: I think education.
So we need to ensure that our media, our social media sites, everybody is talking about this.
[00:25:29] Bob: Paul, what has to change on, on a grand scale?
Adult sons and daughters need to be part of the solution, too.
So they can, wherever possible, keep an eye on mother or father’s transactions.
And that’s really what’s driving this phone call, is their anger at losing their inheritance.
Why weren’t you involved in your mother’s life?
Why is it that your mother has been living alone and you are now, only now, resurfacing.
They don’t like that conversation at all.
Um, so I think we need to encourage everyone to be part of this response.
[00:27:20] Bob: Kate, what do you think could be changed on this wider scale?
People have to see what’s going on before they’ll believe it.
So when a 60-second commercial, the first 30 seconds could be, show how devious these people are.
Show how that can be done.
[00:28:45] Bob: I’m a big believer, Encountering Kate is a really powerful tool.
[00:28:49] Kate Kleinert: Yes, yes.
You lost someone you thought you loved.
The financial harm, and then the shaming and blaming.
But here you are, on the other side.
You’re out there helping others; you’ve taken charge of your story.
How did you get there?
How was I going to survive this?
You know losing money, losing all of your money, has a far reaching effect.
It just goes on where I had lived on my credit cards and my cards were maxed out.
So I was using a portable air conditioner.
In a day in July, my house burnt to the ground.
Along with my six dogs, did not get out.
My hospice dogs that I have taken in.
So I’ve lost all my money, and now I’ve lost all my possessions as well.
So if I don’t stand up and keep moving forward, I’ll be stuck there forever.
[00:31:33] Bob: Boy, is that a message that people need to hear.
This is as violent a crime as, as Kate being stabbed because of the layers of impact.
Again, c’mon come forward.
Kate is just the ultimate example of bravery and courage to step forward.
So you should never be fearful of coming forward, never be fearful of being a–, ashamed.
[00:33:43] Bob: And come out of the shadows.
It’s easier to do than it was maybe 10 or 20 years ago, I think.
[00:34:00] Kate Kleinert: Yes.
[00:34:01] Bob: So Paul, I’ll start with you.
And finally, people know at AARP how to contact myself, Kate, and Mark.
But there’s lots of resources out there.
[00:35:27] Bob: And that Fraud Watch web link Helpline, the number is 877-908-3360.
So that’s 877-908-3360.
Mark, do you have any resources you want to share with people?
Uh, we have uh some incredible information about various scams and frauds.
So um, reach out to local law enforcement.
Reach out to your family members.
You’re a victim of a crime.
[00:36:56] Bob: And I know, Kate, lots of people have called you a hero.
[00:37:05] Kate Kleinert: Ah.
Um, it was finally someplace where I did get some support.
And it’s all done virtually, of course.
Just be able to talk about your story.
you could get that information by calling the Fraud Watch Hotline at 877-908-3360.
But that is really where I got the most of my help.
And I’m so grateful.
[00:38:24] Bob: And put that hammer down.
[00:38:43] Kate Kleinert: Thanks so much.
[00:38:44] Mark Solomon: Thanks, Bob.
[00:38:45] Paul Greenwood: Thank you, Bob.
Call the AARP Fraud Watch online grid Helpline at 877-908-3360.
Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next.
Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
For AARP’s The Perfect Scam, I’m Bob Sullivan.
Far too often, the blame for financial fraud is directed at the victims rather than the criminals.
This keeps victims from speaking up and enables the crimes to continue.
