Not knowing anyone, she does what many people do today and joins a dating app to make connections.
Thats when her friend becomes less helpful.
And he’s like, “Well I could teach you.”
[00:00:25] Bob: Welcome back to the Perfect Scam.
Im your host Bob Sullivan.
But you know, people who are looking for love can be among the most vulnerable.
But there’s even more bad news.
How does the crime work?
Will they even be able to keep the RV?
Here’s our story.
[00:02:31] My name is Niki Hutchinson, and I am currently residing in Tennessee.
I’m a fulltime RVer with my dad.
[00:02:38] Bob: You’re a fulltime RVer.
[00:03:13] Bob: Niki and her dad have left behind a regular street address.
They are what some people call digital nomads.
They live in an RV fulltime at the moment bouncing from state park to state park.
[00:03:37] Bob: I’m sold.
When you bring up the RV door in the morning, what do you see?
We’re close to water and a waterfall, so we actually go fishing in the mornings.
So it’s just been nice to catch up.
[00:04:39] Bob: Are the two you pitching a TV show about your experiences?
[00:05:03] Bob: It’s good they are close, because they need each other right now.
Niki’s mom died two years ago, and her grandmother died just recently.
Soon after Niki’s mom passes away, about two years ago.
And the rest will help Dad realize a lifelong dream.
But first, father and daughter, they decide to rent a place in Florida for the winter.
[00:07:57] Bob: A few days after arriving in California, the connections roll in.
I’m from Anhui," and he’s like, “Oh, I’m from Anhui.”
And I said, “That’s crazy that you’re from Anhui.
I haven’t met anyone from Anhui.”
And he’s like, “You could be my long-lost sister.”
And I was like, “Okay, that’s cool.”
[00:08:53] Bob: Intrigued, Niki keeps chatting with Hao, but she’s not that intrigued.
And again, this was all via Hinge communication.
It felt very much, I would say, like being taught English in school.
It felt very formal in that sense.
So the conversation switches to more friendly topics like hobbies.
[00:09:57] Niki Hutchinson: He rattled off a ton and it ended with investing in cryptocurrency.
I was like, “Oh that’s really cool that you know cryptocurrency.
I’m still trying to learn.”
And so he’s like, “Oh yeah, I’ve helped my friends before.”
I was like, “Oh, that’s really cool.”
And he’s like, “Well I could teach you.”
[00:10:36] Bob: By then, Niki and Hao have shared a lot over chat.
at that point, he was like, “Well, let me teach you.”
And I’m like, “Okay, well when do you want to do it?”
And so, he’s like, “I can teach you this night.”
And I was like, “Okay, that’s fine.”
Like are we going to use FaceTime, Zoom, Google Meet?"
And he’s like, “What are you talking about?
We can chat over WhatsApp.”
And I was like, “I thought you were going to teach my crypto.”
And he’s like, “Yeah, I can teach you on WhatsApp.”
And I was like “Well why don’t we just like hop on a quick call?”
you know, and he’s like, “I’m shy.”
It can be a quick one."
And so I’m prepared to see this guy’s face, and what I see is an eyeball.
And I’m just like, “Hi.”
And he’s like, “It’s nice to meet you,” in a thick accent.
I mean the call is literally 10 seconds,
[00:12:51] Bob: The call is 10 seconds?
[00:12:58] Bob: Just an eyeball.
But here’s what that call sounded like from Niki’s point of view.
[00:13:04] Niki Hutchinson: How are you?
[00:13:06] Hao: (inaudible)
[00:13:10] Niki Hutchinson: Youre good?
[00:13:14] Hao: I like you.
[00:13:16] Niki Hutchinson: (laughs) You like me?
So he texts me back immediately saying, “Oh my gosh, you’re so beautiful.”
And I was just like “Okay, yeah, it was really nice to meet you.”
And I was like, “Okay.”
And that’s where we started to, or where I started to learn how to invest in crypto.
[00:13:43] Bob: Hao walks Niki through every single step of the process.
They start off very small.
I’ve never made an account."
So I screenshot everything, send it to him via WhatsApp.
He marks it and writes where to click and stuff.
So I was like, “Okay.”
I don’t even know how much to put in."
Let’s start small."
He suggested like, you know, put in $200 to see how it goes.
And I was like, okay.
And I was like, okay, I’ll put in 200, see how it goes.
And he’s like, “Don’t worry, I’ll teach you that later.”
I’m like, “Okay.”
[00:15:36] Bob: Right away, Hao suggests Niki started investing more in crypto.
And he’s like, “Yeah, you did great.
You should invest some more.
Do you want to do another 200 or 100?”
And he’s like, “It’s the right time.
you should probably do it now.”
You either got, he would say, “You’ve got to seize the moment.”
And that was like what he told me a lot through these conversations of buying and selling.
And so, I started investing more.
I think that night, even though I was really nervous, I was like sweating while doing it.
He got me to like put in a $1000, roughly $1000 that night.
Not all the time, mind you.
You made $300, and I was just like, still in shock.
Like I, I don’t understand it.
[00:17:27] Bob: at this point, Niki is hooked.
Even after her trip to California ends, she keeps chatting with Hao and keeps investing with him.
And that stakes just keep getting higher.
[00:17:38] Niki Hutchinson: Yeah, so eventually I go back to Florida.
[00:18:02] Bob: And that’s when Hao brings up his very big dreams for Niki.
And he’s like, “Well, you’re doing really well.
I think you should invest.
Right now cryptocurrency’s so hot.”
And so I was like, “Yeah, I am seeing it in the news and stuff.”
He was like saying, “Well why don’t you invest some more?”
But Hao has a plan for that.
And “Do you have like; can you take out a loan and stuff?”
And I’m like, “Oh my gosh,” like “I’m only 24.
No, of course I don’t have a 401k.
Um, I don’t have any jot down of that.”
And he, and he was like, “Well, can you take out a loan?”
He wanted me to take out a 50k loan.
I was just like, uh, that’s impossible, I can’t do that.
And I was just like, absolutely not.
Like my dad’s 66, well now he’s 67, but at the time 66.
And I was like, “No, no.”
Like, “He doesn’t know crypto.
Like I’m still learning crypto.
I don’t feel comfortable with him getting invested in it.”
And he’s like, “Well you’re doing really good.
It wasn’t like I was hiding anything.
Like, I wanted to show him my profits.
Again, still super like a weird concept to me.
And he was like, “I’ll think about it.”
[00:22:00] Bob: It doesn’t take very long.
[00:22:24] Bob: So, Dad and daughter throw in their investment dreams together.
[00:22:29] Niki Hutchinson: This now was early December.
[00:22:43] Bob: And it seems to pay off, quickly.
Both my dad and I were just like, in awe of like that jot down of number.
We like, it just didn’t seem real.
And I was like, “Can you walk me through it.”
And he’s like, “Yes, of course.”
Withdrawing money is not so simple.
And the taxes were close to 380k.
And my heart dropped, like my stomach dropped, everything dropped.
I didn’t know what I was reading at that point.
I was freaking out because my dad and I invested pretty much everything into it.
All our house money.
[00:24:20] Bob: And she remembers asking him about withdrawals earlier.
I thought you’ve withdrawn before.”
He said, “Oh, I’ve never withdrawn before.
My money’s still in the platform.”
And I was just like, “You told me that.”
And he’s like, “I’ve never told you that.”
And looking back, he did tell me that.
I have it in text messages.
But it was just a scary feeling because I’m like, “We don’t have this money.
I don’t know what to do.”
And he was like, “Stop freaking out.”
[00:25:15] Bob: Over text messages, Niki tries to make sense of it all.
And she’s desperate for help.
But help doesn’t come.
He’s like, “We’ll figure this out together.
I’ll see if I can help pay your taxes.”
I was like, “No, I don’t want you to do that.”
And he’s like, “Don’t worry about it, I’ll help you.”
I’m like, “Oh my gosh, like no!
And like, rich friends?
He’s like, “Well have you thought about selling your RV?”
And I was just like, “Are you kidding me?”
I’m like, “Of course not.
I’m going to tell my dad to sell the RV.”
And I’m like, “No, that’s not happening.”
So I was freaking out because now there’s a time limit to paying these taxes off.
And so that’s where I started second guessing on like, is this thing legit?
Like this doesn’t sound right.
And so I went to customer service.
And so I was just like, okay, I don’t know what to do.
Like my dad and I, driving up, I was dead silent.
[00:29:05] Bob: Eventually, Dad opens the door for this most painful of conversations.
And he has a most unexpected reaction.
And I just said, “Nothing.”
And then that’s when I just broke down.
I’m just like, “I, I think we’re in a scam.”
And he’s like, “What are you talking about?”
And he’s like, “Well how much are these taxes?”
He said, “It’s going to be all right.”
[00:30:29] Bob: We’re going to figure this out.
So that’s what Niki does next.
She reads about crypto scams online.
And it was that weird, you know, in-between of like, is this real?
Is this legit, or is this fake?
And you know, for me to start my career in California and stuff, so I had plans.
[00:32:16] Bob: At first Niki is in a very dark place about it all.
I felt so alone.
And so I joined, and it was the first time I didn’t feel alone.
And that was really pivotal for me because I think that’s when I found them.
What kind of things would you say to them?
And most times we’re doing the right thing.
[00:36:29] Niki Hutchinson: We were always close.
When I was a child, he was a stay-at-home dad.
[00:37:07] Bob: What a beautiful relationship Niki and her dad have.
And what an awful experience with investing and with cryptocurrency.
Here to talk more about our relationship with investing is one of the best in the business.
You know her from decades on TV as one of the leading voices in personal finance.
I was lucky enough to work in television with her for many years at NBC.
[00:37:55] Bob: What is it like to work for The Today Show for 25 years?
[00:37:58] Jean Chatzky: I, it was the best job.
And, and I was really, really pleased to be a part of it.
[00:38:15] Bob: And those were a big 25 years.
I mean we’re talking about the dot com bubble, the housing bubble, right?
So I was pleased to be able to help people do that.
[00:38:51] Bob: For Jean, understanding financial markets runs in the family.
It’s also a pretty dangerous weapon, right.
This is, this is when people look to take advantage of, of other people.
And that’s dangerous.
[00:41:40] Bob: I asked Jean what she thought of Niki’s experience.
So I, I just thought, what a champ.
[00:42:15] Bob: What a sweet man, yeah.
At the moment, that means crypto.
you might choose different types of currency that you want to invest in.
This is play money at this point.
[00:45:01] Jean Chatzky: We don’t invest in things that we don’t understand.
Number two is you know we don’t trust people that we’ve never met with our money.
And it’s an excellent question because you are looking for somebody that you might put faith into.
You look for somebody with experience.
And she didn’t do any of those things.
[00:46:30] Bob: Anyone who comes into a surprising windfall of money is particularly vulnerable.
And you don’t want to blow it.
You know, really?
And it’s quite possible that the money was already gone at that point.
It, it seems to me that that, that looks like what happened.
It’s just sad and it’s just, it’s just devastating.
That doesn’t work, right.
You’ve got to, you’ve got to approach it more gently.
[00:48:36] Jean Chatzky: Yeah.
They’re not going to turn on the guy.
I might have asked questions: what cryptocurrencies are you investing in?
How are they doing compared to the overall crypto market?
How did, how did he learn about crypto?
But it’s really hard to say.
We imbue men with smarts that they may not necessarily have.
I hope that that’s changing.
It’s certainly not changing fast enough.
[00:50:53] Bob: Many women are insecure about their knowledge of money.
But they shouldn’t be.
And that insecurity can be exploited.
[00:51:01] Jean Chatzky: Women are often slower than men to pick up investing.
When we do it, we’re great at it.
it’s possible for you to start reading the Wall Street Journal.
[00:53:30] Bob: That fear can be a tool for criminals too.
I’m, I’m in my 50s, I’ve got to catch up.
I’ve gotta do something drastic, and that scammer can walk right into that.
[00:54:00] Bob: What would Jean say to Niki now?
You’re, you’ve got time on your side.
And most people who become financially successful and financially secure do it the boring, old-fashioned way.
Go to a real financial person advising that.
[00:55:38] Bob: And how is Niki today?
[00:55:40] Niki Hutchinson: I’m feeling a little bit relief.
Another word is, oh gosh, just sorrow, I would say.
It was just such a painful experience, and I would never wish my worst enemy on this feeling.
I would say, sorry, I am trying to figure out good words for this.
[00:56:23] Bob: It’s complicated.
[00:56:24] Niki Hutchinson: It is, it very much is.
I would saying healing, another one.
[00:57:06] Bob: You have a remarkably positive attitude.
[00:57:09] Niki Hutchinson: Thank you, thank you.
Call the AARP Fraud Watch web link Helpline at 877-908-3360.
Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next.
Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
For AARP’s The Perfect Scam, I’m Bob Sullivan.
