[00:00:14] Will: Welcome back to AARP The Perfect Scam.
I’m your host, Will Johnson.
I’m here as always once again with AARP’s Fraud Watch data pipe Ambassador, Frank Abagnale.
[00:00:01] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam.
I’m your host, Bob Sullivan.
We all seem to agree on that.
But they just keep coming.
Believe it or not, that was down slightly from the prior year.
COVID-19 impacted everything, even criminal telemarketing operations.
The government says his company made 100 million spoof robocalls during a single three-month period in 2016.
People call him the most cynical man you will ever meet.
Don’t hang up.
This time Host Will Johnson takes you on this wild ride.
[00:02:03] Will: This week on AARP - The Perfect Scam.
Every one of us.
[00:02:18] Will: Welcome back to AARP - The Perfect Scam.
I’m your host, Will Johnson, joined as always by Frank Abagnale.
Great to have you back on again.
[00:02:24] Frank Abagnale: Great to be back.
[00:02:25] Will: So, Frank, I’m talking about robocalls.
We all get them, and, and they seem to come in waves.
If someone would respond, they were going to make a lot of money.
So robocalls are just a move along 40 years of technology to where we are today with robocalls.
[00:04:32] Will: All right, let’s get into this week’s scam.
It actually endangered lives.
[00:05:03] (robocall) Hello.
[00:05:12] (robocall) Hello.
This is Beth calling from the underwriting department.
[00:05:24] (robocall) Max Brown here with Couchworker.org.
[00:05:34] Will: The dreaded robocall.
For some of us it’s more than a nuisance, it’s an everyday thing.
For some, even multiple times a day, and it seems like it’s getting worse.
And that’s really remarkable because we get complaints about everything.
[00:06:06] Will: That’s Kristi Thompson.
[00:07:03] Will: You might even get a call from someone complaining that you keep calling them.
[00:07:21] Will: A spoof.
[00:07:22] Kristi Thompson: A spoof.
That’s exactly right.
[00:07:24] Will: For scammers, spoofing is a secret weapon.
They can get past that first barrier getting you on the phone.
Spoofing allows them to knock that barrier down.
Alex Palmer is a freelance writer, and he is very interested in the world of robocalls.
[00:07:37] Alex Palmer: Last month was something like 5 billion calls, just robocalls.
[00:07:49] Will: And like most Americans, Alex gets lots and lots of robocalls.
How does, you know, how does this economy function?
Do you know that this is a scam?
You know, how did you get into this business?
In fact, you probably get robocalls all the time that are totally legit.
Your bank can still call you.
If there’s an emergency, they can do it.
[00:09:25] Kristi Thompson: If you are trying to scam someone, that’s an illegal call.
You have an illegal purpose for that.
You’re committing fraud, um, you’re, you’re making an illegal robocall.
Uh, permission is really the crux of everything.
Did you have the recipient’s permission to make that robocall?
[00:09:57] Will: So what the heck do we do?
Stop answering our phone?
That’s one approach.
There are a growing number of apps available that are designed to block robocalls.
We’ll get into the solutions that are out there in a little bit.
[00:10:29] Kristi Thompson: You remember the ’80s and ’90s, you remember pager systems?
[00:11:29] Will: So pagers are going off.
[00:11:30] Kristi Thompson: Right.
[00:11:31] Will: Because the pager’s just like a phone number.
[00:12:02] Kristi Thompson: That’s kind of a hallmark of, of robocalls.
The internet is, is not good.
This is a serious problem.
Brad Young is Assistant General Counsel for TripAdvisor.
[00:15:25] Will: That was a big deal, and the fraud team at TripAdvisor knew it.
Consumer complaints about the calls start pouring in.
The first one was our general counsel’s wife saying, hey, this isn’t right.
You guys should figure this out.
Every one of us.
So we started getting those angry calls.
Um, he’s, he’s really an expert in what he does.
He is constantly uh iterating, evolving, and developing new methods for identifying fraud, right?
The writer, Alex Palmer.
[00:17:35] Alex Palmer: Yeah, so he goes by Fred Garvin professionally.
Um, so he uses the name Fred Garvin.
It hearkens back to an old SNL skit with Dan Aykroyd.
[00:17:57] Will: When we talk to Fred, he sounds relaxed, mild-mannered.
That was really challenging.
This is, is this real?
And that started you know the investigation.
That, that added to what we needed to be able to figure out where it was going.
It depended on the time of day when you would get those calls where they would be routed to.
And in July the following year, Fred got the break he needed.
[00:21:46] Will: Welcome back to AARP - The Perfect Scam.
I’m your host, Will Johnson.
I’m here, as always, once again with Frank Abagnale.
[00:21:52] Frank Abagnale: Great to be here, Will, thanks.
We’re going to get back into part two of this story.
[00:22:22] Frank Abagnale: Absolutely.
Don’t, the longer you stay on the robocall, the more robocalls you’re going to get.
But you don’t want to spend time on the phone.
You know, we give away so much information.
And it said, fill out the warranty card and then you get a 3-year warranty on your refrigerator.
It gave you multiple choice.
Are you in this age bracket of this age and that age?
Uh do you earn between this amount of money and that amount of money?
Uh, why do you want anyone to know?
That was years ago.
I didn’t make that call.
[00:24:51] Will: All right, well let’s get back to our story about bad robocalls.
They were using the same types of uh sales pitches and such, both in the US and Canada.
And you know that, that was really helpful.
And so that’s, that’s the thing.
And, and go from there.
[00:26:11] Will: As Fred is digging into the calls, he gets a lucky break.
Fred immediately engages with the calls and the callers.
And uh really come up with a final answer.
[00:26:45] Will: That direct call to Fred’s phone helps him to connect dots.
He’s reached out to customers and anyone he can find who’s gotten one of the calls.
Alex Palmer is a freelance writer who’s written about the TripAdvisor scam and the scourge of robocalls.
[00:27:31] Brad Young: I say this uh, as lovingly as one possibly can.
Fred was like a dog with a bone with this thing.
[00:28:08] Will: Months of research and investigation are paying off.
Fred and the fraud team identify what they believe to be the call center in Mexico.
And fortunately, one of the beneficiaries was willing to provide us with some information.
His name is Adrian.
Here’s his phone number.
They simply hired Adrian Abramovich to set all that into motion.
Fred Garvin finally has what he’s been looking for; the next stop for TripAdvisor is the FCC.
Kristi Thompson is Chief of the FCC’s Telecommunications Consumers Division.
[00:31:03] Kristi Thompson: That’s right.
And I have no idea at this point what it is that they have done.
Neither side aware that they’re sitting on a name, the possible mastermind behind the illegal robocalls.
I got a bad call.
I don’t know when a victim has become a victim until they reach out and let me know.
[00:33:21] Will: High fives all the way around.
Have you heard of this guy named Adrian Abramovich?
And I, I just about, you know jaw just about hit the floor.
We had one guy, Adrian Abramovich making 96 million illegal spoofed robocalls in a three-month period in 2016.
[00:34:29] Will: Unbelievable.
[00:34:30] Kristi Thompson: It was an incredible, it was an incredible number.
[00:34:38] Will: And you had a record of each of, each of those 96 million?
[00:34:41] Kristi Thompson: We had evidence about all 96 million of those calls.
So it was a, it was a mountain of evidence and it all traced back to him.
So the Commission, uh, imposed a $120 million fine on Adrian Abramovich.
For hours Adrian Abramovich sat in the hot seat to face the kind of grilling you might expect.
[00:35:51] Will: Abramovich finally gets the bad news in July 2017.
First warnings, and then the massive fine.
The largest fine in FCC history.
[00:35:59] Will: So he gets this massive fine.
Can he pay back any of it?
[00:36:03] Kristi Thompson: Uh, the FCC doesn’t collect any of its own money.
[00:36:23] Will: So what do we know about Adrian Abramovich?
Does he live like a king making millions off of illegal robocalls and scamming victims?
Alex Palmer meets him in person.
[00:36:32] Alex Palmer: Meet is probably too dignified a word for it.
Um, he had gotten into robocalling quite a while ago, worked from a home office.
It’s usually just a pittance of it.
[00:39:22] Alex Palmer: No.
[00:40:13] Will: So what can we do?
What is the FCC doing outside of massive fines that may or may not be paid?
That means there’s a whole swath of consumers someday who will be untouchable by, by robocalls.
Uh, but if it’s important, they’ll leave a voice mail.
It’s not worth it to uh, you know put your financial stability at risk.
Thanks for being here, Kathy.
[00:42:38] Kathy Stokes: Thanks for having me.
The Senate passed a bill and then um, the House more recently passed one.
They’re a little different.
[00:43:09] Will: The spoofing.
[00:43:09] Kathy Stokes: Spoofing, the spoofing, yeah.
The real ones are going to get through.
[00:44:41] Kathy Stokes: Yes, yes, that’s, that’s the intention.
[00:44:43] Will: Okay.
[00:44:54] Kathy Stokes: Well absolutely.
you’re free to call the AARP Fraud Watch web link Helpline.
How are we supporting it?
Are we getting behind it?
[00:45:30] Kathy Stokes: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:46:00] Will: That seems very reasonable.
So that’s how that should work in the future.
It’s an entirely legal use of spoofing.
[00:47:28] Will: That’s an authenticated call.
[00:47:30] Kathy Stokes: Yes, that’s an authenticated call.
[00:47:31] Will: All right.
[00:47:31] Kathy Stokes: Yeah.
[00:47:32] Will: Kathy, it’s not your first time joining us.
I hope you’ll come back again and fill in Frank’s shoes.
[00:47:36] Kathy Stokes: I would love to.
[00:47:41] Kathy Stokes: Thank you.
Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.
For AARP - The Perfect Scam, I’m Will Johnson.
[00:20:12] Frank Abagnale: Right, absolutely.
Thanks, Frank, we’ll talk to you next week.
[00:22:51] Frank Abagnale: Right, great being here.
Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.
For AARP The Perfect Scam, I’m Will Johnson.
When Mandarin-language calls began to bombard residents across the U.S., authorities take a deeper look.
They find that these illegal robocalls are targeting areas with large Chinese American populations.
Victims of the Chinese consulate scam are told they are in legal trouble with the Chinese government.
The scammers then persuade them to hand over money or personal information to sort out the phony problem.
Victims lose $150,000 on average.
For instance, if you are looking for a job, you are more vulnerable to a work-at-home scam.
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