[00:00:03] Alexis Conran: What psychological principles are involved to convince someone of your story?
Because essentially, Bob, that’s it, isn’t it?
A scam is a story, it’s a narrative.
My job as a hustler is just to get you to believe in me and believe in the story.
That’s all I’m trying to do.
[00:00:28] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam.
I’m your host, Bob Sullivan.
Few people on Earth are better at understanding the criminal mind than today’s guest.
He’s Alexis Conran, star of the British TV showThe Real Hustle.
You know a big theme of The Perfect Scam is that anyone can become the victim of a crime.
So, here’s our conversation.
[00:01:49] Alexis Conran: My name is Alexis Conran.
It was entertaining to watch.
[00:03:19] Bob: Did you set out to do a TV about scams?
[00:03:23] Alexis Conran: I didn’t, you know.
There was an American version that was done.
There was a Russian version that was done, but that was more like robbery than hustling.
Maybe I’ve inherited a gene from my late father.
He was actually a conman.
I, I grew up in Greece.
He, he was doing cons to subsidize his income because he had a huge gambling addiction.
[00:04:31] Bob: So let’s be clear.
There is, there is an, a, a crescendo and then it happens.
So I definitely think, you know, con men get addicted to that.
But I also think that there is an incredible amount that is desensitizing as a human being.
So, I am not a, a criminal, Bob.
I hope, I hope you, you’ve got the option to acknowledge.
Let’s be, let’s be clear about that.
[00:06:28] Bob: Let’s be clear about that, yeah.
[00:06:30] Alexis Conran: I’ve never done it as a criminal.
I’ve always done it as someone who’s been presenting a TV show.
And I have found it at the time quite hard to do that to people.
We were making a TV show.
So I found that quite difficult.
I guess I what I’m trying to say is it feels so wrong.
But like I can, this is going to be an easy win for me.
[00:08:19] Bob: Something else criminals have in common, arrogance.
Some have been described as sociopaths.
It’s just my observation of all the scams that I have done.
Now sometimes it’s just one of the principles is, is present.
Sometimes it’s three or four principles that’s present.
But onThe Real Hustle, we did all of those scams.
We did every single scam imaginable.
We went out and did it impersonation scams, everything.
A scam is a story, it’s a narrative.
My job as a hustler is just to get you to believe in me and believe in the story.
That’s all I’m trying to do.
Buy my narrative, buy my story.
[00:11:02] Bob: Buy my story.
That’s the goal of anyone trying to deceive you, to sell you a story.
So elements are often present when a criminal is selling a story?
Element number 1: Misdirection.
Maybe I’ll ask you a question.
Now, misdirection is a common trait.
You want your victim to be focused on something positive.
That’s not something you want them to focus on.
So that’s what you’re going to focus on.
Now youre sitting there in London or New York or Los Angeles, now you’re going to panic.
You’re going to go, well that’s not me.
$3000 has just left my account.
You know, again, that’s misdirection.
If that does happen, contact your bank.
Do not select any links.
[00:13:13] Bob: Element number 2: Time pressure.
[00:13:17] Alexis Conran: So, time pressure is a legitimate sales technique.
You’re just pressuring someone to make a decision quickly and there on the spot.
You don’t want them to focus on what they’re about to do for too long.
They will keep you on that phone and almost badger you into submission to give them a sale.
It’s only going to be valid for, you know, the following days.
you’re gonna wanna make your mind up right now.
And you see it.
You see how successful it is in, in sales.
For example, look at Black Friday and Cyber Monday.
Yeah, people spend ridiculous amounts of money on stuff that they don’t need.
Because it’s only available for that day.
So we know it works psychological, and of course, criminals use it all the time.
[00:14:25] Bob: Element number 3: Herd mentality.
Behavioral scientists call this social proof we tend to do what everyone around us is doing.
One way to learn how this works is to watch street hustlers play a shell game, Alexis says.
And they are his shills.
They are his, part of the team.
One of them’s probably on the lookout to see if any police are coming.
And the other two are playing along.
They are pretending to be interested customers.
You say, well this, this is going to be genuine, so many people have shared it.
Well, it’s not necessarily the case.
I, I, you know, I’m not a sheep.
I make up my own mind.
And but unfortunately you do, and it’s a good thing that you do.
The herd principle is the reason that we’re still here, Bob.
Oh yes, it is.
Oh, now I’m dead.
You’re looking at what everybody is doing, and you follow suit.
We want to fit in to what everybody else is doing, and that’s incredibly powerful.
That’s something else that’s easier in the internet age.
[00:17:30] Alexis Conran: All those things are really, really important to people.
It’s incredibly powerful to wear a uniform or a, a good suit.
People assign you with responsibility when you have a high visibility jacket on.
Someone you’ve never heard of says, check us out, you know, google us.
You’re just looking at some code.
You’re not looking at a real company, but we can’t help ourselves.
I mean it’s one thing to buy a, a uniform.
It’s another thing to just have to cut and paste a logo into an email, right?
[00:18:47] Alexis Conran: Yeah, exactly.
You had to have proper knowledge.
And that knowledge, you couldn’t get it from Google.
You couldn’t get it from Encyclopedia Britannica.
You had to get it from getting involved in the criminal world.
It requires no skill, and it’s very inexpensive.
And the other problem you have is that the chances of these people getting caught are still quite low.
Now, again, I think the authorities are doing an incredible job all around the world.
[00:21:19] Bob: Alexis told me he has a particular distaste for romance scammers.
We see a lot of them on The Perfect Scam, too.
He was um, he was someone who was scamming people on those dating websites.
I don’t know why he agreed to speak to me, but he did.
Uh, he was very candid.
He asked, he answered all the questions I asked him.
They put a lot of work into the sweetheart scams.
They will often have 10, 15, maybe even 20 people on the go.
They’re building that narrative; they’re building that relationship.
So you go onto a profile?
But I said, how do you, how do you troll through all the people on there?
Why would you pick one person over another?
And there was a few little things that I thought, that’s kind of quite fascinating.
And people from a certain age and above, so over 40.
But I said, “Pets?
I said, “Why?”
He said, “Because it shows me there’s disposable income.”
They could afford to have a cat and dog and therefore, they have some money.
For every security tool invented by techies, criminals figure out a way around it.
But Alexis reminded me the cat and mouse game isn’t really new.
[00:24:47] Alexis Conran: It is.
It is perilous, and it’s, it’s going to continue to be so.
But then again, I think we’ve been here before, Bob.
[00:25:48] Bob: And that’s why Alexis is so passionate about consumer education.
Always ask yourself, is this likely?
I had an email from my mum saying, “Ah, I saw this on YouTube.
I thought you’d find it funny.”
My mum’s never sent me anything from YouTube, ever.
Right, but it was her email address.
But I knew it was a scam because that’s not how she behaves.
And they’re very good at that.
So actually, you know, asking yourself constantly, is this likely?
Give them a call on the number you know and trust.
If they say, choose this link, don’t.
Pick up the phone.
Speak to your bank, I’ve just received this message.
[00:27:32] Bob: I think you are capable of doing the right things, too.
Alexis offers a great rule of thumb.
For almost any encounter offline or online, ask yourself, is this likely?
Hang up the phone if you don’t recognize the speaker.
Better yet, don’t answer the calls.
Let them go to voicemail.
Don’t respond to emails or private messages you don’t expect.
Never share passwords, never send money without talking through things with trusted family members or friends.
They lie, they cheat, they steal from people on their deathbed.
They’ll do anything, so you’re able to’t let your guard down.
We’ll keep trying to help.
Call the AARP Fraud Watch online grid Helpline at 877-908-3360.
Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next.
That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org.
Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
For AARP’s The Perfect Scam, I’m Bob Sullivan.
END OF TRANSCRIPT
In this bonus episode, host Bob Sullivan welcomes special guest Alexis Conran.
Conran discusses what hes learned about the criminal mindset and what he has identified as the elements of deception.
