[00:00:04] It was the worst fear and panic that I have ever felt.
[00:00:22] Julie: Welcome back to AARP’s The Perfect Scam.
I’m Julie Getz and with me is my cohost AARP Ambassador and Fraud Expert, Frank Abagnale.
Frank, it’s always so good to see you.
[00:00:32] Frank Abagnale: Thanks for having me.
Can you share with listeners what is the utility scam and how does it work?
[00:01:06] Julie: Right, so they use a typical scare tactic.
[00:01:08] Frank Abagnale: And they say, well maybe I missed a bill.
Maybe I skipped a payment.
[00:01:17] Julie: I totally get it.
I’d probably go grab my credit card out of my purse to avoid the power being cut.
I mean we’re busy, things like this can happen, right?
[00:01:24] Frank Abagnale: Yes.
She said, “Of course I ignore them.
[00:01:37] Julie: Ah, yes.
I am with your wife 100%.
They said I owed money.”
They just look up your account and say, “No ma’am, you’re up to date.
That just takes a minute to verify that.
Sometimes people call up and show up at the house.
If you’re in doubt, call the utility company.
I have a man out here; says he works for you.
“No, no, can’t do that.
You have to do that on the telephone.”
Well that, you know, that’s that red flag again.
And if you have questions, call the utility company.
But the big takeaway here, folks, is that you hang up the phone.
[00:03:26] Frank Abagnale: Hang up the phone.
[00:03:26] Julie: Hang it up.
Well, today we’re going to talk about virtual kidnappings.
Kathie Gross lives with her husband Mark and their 13-year-old daughter in Orange County, California.
[00:04:09] Kathie Gross: My husband is an architect.
I’m a homemaker.
And we have one daughter, Jordan.
[00:04:24] Julie: Good.
Tell me what happened.
Up at 7:30, you know, breakfast, out the door.
I dropped Jordan at school.
I drove to a spin class, um, did that for an hour.
And I received a call that came across the screen and said, “No Caller ID.”
So that prompted me to pick up the phone.
[00:05:22] Kathie Gross: Hello.
[00:05:23] Kathie Gross: I immediately heard my daughter’s voice.
very panicked, “Mom?”
And I responded, “Yes?”
[00:05:33] Julie: The call catches Kathie off guard.
It sounds like her daughter Jordan who she dropped off just an hour before.
[00:05:40] Kathie Gross: What I heard next was just, you know, insanity.
Um, “Mom, I have a problem.”
And I said, “Yes?”
And um, “They took me.
I’m, I’m in a van.
I don’t know where I am.
There aren’t any windows.”
And I was speechless.
And in that moment where I didn’t say anything, she responded back, “Mom?
You know, just, “Are you there?”
And then I said, “Oh my God, Jordan, where are you?”
“I don’t know, I think I’m on the freeway.
There are no windows.”
All this time I’m thinking this is her.
[00:06:16] Julie: Kathie’s head is swirling with fear.
I remember feeling like there was some scuffling going on in the background.
A man’s voice came on the line and he said, “Is this Kathie Gross?”
He had an accent.
I wasn’t sure, you know, it, was this a Mexican accent?
Was this Middle Eastern?
And he said, “Listen, Missy, you’d better not hang up.
You’d better not call anyone.
We have him.”
[00:06:55] Julie: Him?
Suddenly Kathie feels unsure.
So that triggered me to realize that possibly they didn’t have her.
That, on top of the fact that the security at her school is so great.
She has a drop-off area at school.
The gate closes, it locks, so a very secure campus.
[00:07:28] Kathie Gross: I thought, I’m going to hang up.
[00:07:40] Julie: Right.
[00:07:55] Julie: By now, Kathie’s heart is racing wildly.
She grips the steering wheel and speeds back to Jordan’s school dialing as she drives.
[00:08:03] Kathie Gross: I called the school.
Oh, you know, “Oh my, let me, of course hold on.”
As I’m on hold, I’m getting calls, “No Caller ID.”
What’s going on?”
“Let me transfer you to the head of middle school.”
And they couldn’t find her because she was not where she was supposed to be.
So they were panicking at the school.
[00:08:55] Julie: By now, Kathie isn’t the only one panicked.
The school has gone on complete lockdown as security guards spread throughout the school.
[00:09:13] Julie: Five minutes later, Kathie pulls up to the school hysterical with worry.
So she wasn’t, she wasn’t where she was supposed to be.
[00:09:35] Julie: Kathie and her daughter share a tearful reunion.
So I was almost not surprised to be getting an anxious upset call from her.
But it was the worst fear and panic that I have ever felt.
It’s, 15 minutes is too long.
I was kind of ill and very, very tired.
[00:11:02] Kathie Gross: I really could not disconnect from it.
Can you tell me more about that?
[00:11:18] Kathie Gross: Yes.
And I had a doctor scheduled.
This particular doctor um, called, “No Caller ID.”
[00:12:08] Kathie Gross: It still does.
[00:12:16] Julie: Don’t.
[00:12:19] Julie: No.
[00:12:19] Kathie Gross: They can leave a voice mail if it’s important.
Yeah, “No Caller ID” not, not a good thing.
[00:12:24] Julie: So how did you heal from this?
Like what was it that helped you take your power back?
I called all of the news agencies locally.
I called the FBI.
I, you know, so many people read that.
[00:13:55] Julie: Kathie, this is an incredible story and very powerful.
Thank you so much for sharing it with us.
[00:14:00] Kathie Gross: I appreciate the chance to talk with you.
[00:14:03] Julie: Thank you.
Her name is Samantha Kelly.
Samantha’s a business tech editor and helps oversee daily tech coverage atCNN.
[00:14:27] Julie: And that just plays right into what we’re talking about today.
So how did you find this story, and how did you start hearing about virtual kidnapping?
[00:15:27] Samantha Kelly: Exactly.
[00:15:42] Julie: So what did the Bakers do?
Is this scam on the rise?
She got a phone call about her son was in jail and needed the money immediately.
And anecdotally I’ve noticed that a lot of like parents or grandparents are specifically being called.
This is a part of a growing trend.
It isn’t necessarily new.
This is something that is really emotional and really hard on families.
People, you know, seek therapy afterwards.
This is impacting people in really harmful ways, more than just losing a couple hundred dollars.
[00:17:38] Julie: Um-hmm.
And we talk about this a lot here at AARP.
It’s what we call “getting the targets under the ether.”
So, now let’s transition to how difficult it is to track these scammers.
[00:18:14] Julie: Huh.
[00:18:16] Samantha Kelly: Exactly, yes, yep.
[00:18:32] Julie: That’s all really interesting, Samantha.
[00:18:49] Samantha Kelly: All right.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate it.
[00:18:52] Julie: And now I’m back in the studio with Frank.
Frank, it just seems that many victims of virtual kidnappings are completely unaware that this crime even exists.
They react as any parent would when faced with a potential threat to their child.
What do you think is the best way to protect yourself from this virtual kidnapping scam?
[00:19:45] Julie: Got it, just have a go at slow everything down.
What color hair do they have?
What color eyes do they have?
How tall are they?
They can’t answer those questions.
venture to slow everything down, really try and verify.
[00:20:47] Frank Abagnale: Right, stop and, like we do in all the scams.
What clothes are they wearing.
See, if it was real, they’d know all that.
Could they really have this person or are they actually in school?
[00:21:34] Julie: Just like Kathie did.
[00:21:35] Frank Abagnale: Right, exactly.
[00:21:36] Julie: Um-hmm.
[00:21:53] Julie: Sure, great.
Frank, thank you so much, as always, it’s great to have you on the show.
[00:21:59] Frank Abagnale: Thanks, Julie.
[00:22:05] Frank Abagnale: We’ll see you next week.
Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
For AARP - The Perfect Scam, I’m Julie Getz.
Her cellphone displays the caller as unknown.
Even though shes hesitant, Kathie decides to answer.
On the line she hears screaming and a man claiming to have Kathies daughter.
The man addresses both Kathie and her daughter by name, but something about the interaction feels off.
Terrified, Kathie isnt sure what to do next.
For instance, if you are looking for a job you are more vulnerable to a work-at-home scam.
