And that as really shocking how easily I went down.
This was a wakeup call.
[00:00:17] Michelle: It’s the scam that netted a shark.
Welcome back to AARP’sThe Perfect Scam.
I’m your host, Michelle Koskinski.
And with me on today’s show is another one and only, Fraud Expert Frank Abagnale.
It’s great to have you on the show, Frank.
[00:00:44] Frank Abagnale: Hi, Michelle, good to be with you.
[00:00:46] Michelle: So Frank, this week’s scam caught a big shark twice.
Somebody’s who built a business empire on cutting through the nonsense and making deals.
But you know, we constantly see that scams can target anyone.
[00:01:14] Michelle: And Frank, tell us what exactly is an email phishing scam.
[00:01:18] Frank Abagnale: Well email phishing scams are getting very sophisticated.
Great having lunch with you yesterday.
We need to do that more often.
When you get back, give me a call.
We’ll have lunch again.
Here’s the link," signed Joan.
Now, she’s already told her on Facebook that she was going to lunch with her friend.
She even said they had a great lunch after the lunch.
Uh, she always mentioned her husband Randy’s name several times on Facebook including her children’s names.
And of course, they’ve said three weeks earlier they were going to Disney World.
I just had lunch with her yesterday.
So they don’t even second guess that it might be a phishing email.
[00:02:41] Michelle: That is incredible.
Thanks so much, Frank.
[00:02:44] Frank Abagnale: Absolutely.
$50,000 exactly as you stated for 25%."
[00:03:12] Michelle: Yes, that is the show, Shark Tank’s Barbara Corcoran.
By any definition, a shark.
[00:04:05] (show clip) Take it.
I sold that about gosh, 15 years ago.
[00:04:31] Michelle: What’s something that most people don’t know about you?
[00:04:34] Barbara Corcoran: Not a thing.
[00:04:44] Michelle: It’s all out there on Tik Tok.
[00:04:45] Barbara Corcoran: You betcha.
[00:04:54] Barbara Corcoran: Why was that so different, though?
I thought it was the amount of money that got the headline.
But it was easy as could be, and that was really shocking how easily I went down.
[00:05:21] Michelle: Easy, Barbara says, because of how slick these scammers were.
It was like any other packed business day in New York for her and her team.
The usual buzz of activity, meetings, calls, scheduling, and emails.
Barbara definitely works and talks at a New York pace.
Her accountant gets an email from Barbara’s assistant, or so it comes off as.
The email asks the accountant to approve some renovations to apartments Barbara bought in Germany.
The bill, $388,000.
And because there was no reason to be suspicious, my accountant assumed it was correct.
It was even worded in the same style of language of how my assistant would speak.
So it wasn’t stilted in any way or used words that she normally wouldn’t use.
It sounded perfectly plausible; short, to the point, just wire the money.
[00:06:24] Michelle: All by the book procedure for Barbara’s team.
That’s where the shock immediately sets in.
This was all somehow a scam, and the money had been sent, poof, electronically.
But it had just happened, so Barbara’s assistant jumps into action.
She tells Barbara; Barbara calls her bank hoping to slam the brakes on that wire transfer.
Minutes are of the essence here.
And then she finds out the German bank was only a way station for the cash.
The way the scammers had set this all up, it was ultimately bound for China.
They, too, realized this big payment had all been built of BS.
That email from Barbara’s assistant to her accountant was a fake.
[00:08:16] Michelle: And this person clearly knew what they were doing.
They knew exactly who did what.
And they chose those two players.
It was buttoned up.
I would say buttoned up, yeah.
[00:08:46] Barbara Corcoran: Well, yes.
Because I guess anyone could have access to that.
Oh, is that the same as it was two minutes ago?
And so, it’s a very easy slip of the hand, so to speak.
[00:09:14] Michelle: So this could even happen to a shark.
[00:09:18] Barbara Corcoran: Yes, nothing raised a brow.
[00:09:20] Michelle: Barbara was one of the lucky ones.
That money, and a lot of it caught in the nick of time.
In the end, she got it all back even though it took a little trip to Europe there.
That is, after Barbara’s accountant ended up copying her real assistant just at the last second.
As if Barbara’s money had its own scam-fighting guardian angel watching over it.
What saved us here was my accountant, as a matter of habit, copied my assistant.
“What apartments?”
We would have found out much later.
There was no other way to catch it, except that she copied my assistant at the real address.
How did they manage to sound just like Barbara’s assistant in that email?
The answer sadly is another scam, this one even more outlandish and involved.
It was so amazing, we all celebrated at work.
We’re going on this boondoggle.
[00:11:35] Michelle: That’s incredible.
[00:11:36] Barbara Corcoran: And all I have to do is a speech.
This trip would entail an enormous appearance fee for Barbara, all expenses paid, and then some.
Her whole entourage, and then some.
[00:12:12] Michelle: This is crazy.
[00:12:12] Barbara Corcoran: Oh, this was nutsy.
I, everybody was so excited.
[00:12:16] Michelle: The catch was in that cause Barbara mentioned, the orphanage for girls.
So I’m like, oh, that’s cool.
[00:12:52] Barbara Corcoran: Of course.
[00:13:06] Barbara Corcoran: Exactly.
[00:13:38] Barbara Corcoran: The scam of it was very simply that last piece about the donation.
It was an exchange.
[00:13:59] Michelle: How right you are.
[00:14:04] (show clip) “too like her, too slick.
And my gut is ringing, there’s got to be something wrong.
You’re too slick for me.
I don’t trust you, so I’m out.”
This trip was all planned.
[00:15:11] Michelle: Is this the world’s greatest accountant or what?
[00:15:13] Barbara Corcoran: So it was that hesitation that saved that $200,000.
The king was making the donation in my name.
[00:15:32] Michelle: Got it.
For a good cause, it’s not my money.
If he wants to make it in my name in a ceremonial pop in way, that’s fine.
[00:15:44] Michelle: Well, you must have been stunned by this.
[00:15:46] Barbara Corcoran: Your immediate reaction is what?
I think it’s probably like when your husband’s having an affair.
You’re like, I can’t believe that he’s had an affair.
That’s how it happens.
So when we were shocked, like what!?!
Pieces started falling in place.
You know right, right away and you’re, that never sounded right.
And that’s the first thing that came to my mind.
I thought, they were pretty easy on that extra first class airfare.
The extra room for 8 days.
The extra, extra you know.
[00:16:46] Michelle: That’s just how you roll, Barbara.
[00:16:47] Barbara Corcoran: It was just too easy.
It was all too easy, really, when you think about it.
It was too good to be true is what I say once more.
[00:17:52] Michelle: You’ve been lucky twice, really lucky.
[00:17:55] Barbara Corcoran: Or almost unlucky.
(laugh)
[00:18:35] Michelle: And how do you feel after, after this happens twice?
[00:18:38] Barbara Corcoran: I just feel lucky we didn’t lose the monies.
And we lost time, but they weren’t successful in this scam.
Does it make you feel more vulnerable?
[00:18:46] Michelle: And someone like Barbara is a target for these things.
Where there’s money, there are going to be criminals sniffing around.
[00:19:02] Barbara Corcoran: It’s really, does she have the money?
How do we get it out of her?
That’s what a target’s all about.
[00:19:17] Barbara Corcoran: Oh, yes.
Well we’ve done a lot.
I mean, this is a wakeup call.
We made a lot of security changes in our office regarding the server we use.
We have changed how frequently we; we change our passwords.
Even famous business moguls can run into these traps with passwords that really do let your guard down.
Just confirming it’s true," and done.
They would have been found out immediately from the very first email.
So that’s in place now, a, a phone confirmation.
So important and so easy to do.
[00:20:44] Michelle: It’s as if her accountant has some kind of spidey sense for scams.
She just keeps saving the day.
[00:20:49] Michelle: You must have been like, again?
But they closed up shop right away.
Boom-boom, like you almost imagine them, that they never really existed.
You know, they close up so fast.
So it wasn’t until many days later we realized they were related.
But it did bug me.
I’m thinking, how did they know our pecking order here?
How did they know who to go to for what?
[00:21:48] Michelle: Does any part of this keep you up at night, Barbara?
[00:21:51] Barbara Corcoran: No, I’m not a worrier.
It was already wired.
Okay, I didn’t know it had been wired to the German bank.
I didn’t know that the bank uh was dealing with it.
And it was like a kick in the gut.
[00:22:21] Michelle: Yeah, I think people were probably cheering for you.
So it really is an uneven playing field in the scam business.
Well you would know, that’s your field, right?
[00:23:20] Michelle: It does.
[00:23:21] Barbara Corcoran: It’s so unfair.
I am so out on this.
I’m out."
Okay, that’s such a cliche, but I had to learn it that way, okay.
I mean if youre going to be overpaid on anything, chances are it’s a scam.
Okay, that’s what I learned on the first one.
I would ask, you know, my son or daughter, what do you think about this?
You know what else I’ve learned, sorry, I’m all over the board.
[00:25:04] Michelle: No, I love it.
[00:25:22] Michelle: Wait, there were no phone calls?
[00:25:23] Barbara Corcoran: No phone calls,
[00:25:24] Michelle: Okay.
[00:25:24] Barbara Corcoran: No, no phone calls, no way to talk through anything.
You always were emailing.
But anything done by pure email is more apt to be a scam, I think.
We could have called Germany.
It’s time to make a decision.
What are you going to do?
(music segue)… We want to go with Barbara."
So let’s talk to our Fraud Expert, Frank Abagnale about this.
She was just so honest about all this.
She had been that close to losing what would have totaled more than half a million dollars.
[00:27:43] Frank Abagnale: Yes.
[00:27:43] Michelle: It was like a double-whammy.
[00:28:12] Michelle: And let’s say you have a, a very successful company.
If they are inside of your gear system and watching you, would you have any indication of that?
Would anything pop up to warn you potentially?
[00:28:27] Frank Abagnale: Uh, not necessarily.
So smart companies are very proactive.
They’re aware of this, they’re constantly monitoring for it, they’re constantly watching for it.
They’re using the proper technology to keep it out.
And of course, these scams don’t just abuse businesses.
Engage your inner skeptic, especially during these challenging times now when we’re all anxious about coronavirus.
Scammers know that our heightened emotional state works in their favor.
Frank, it’s been great talking to you.
[00:30:19] Frank Abagnale: Thank you.
Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
For AARP’sThe Perfect Scam, I’m Michelle Kosinski.
Armed with this knowledge, scammers employ an elaborate emailphishingscheme in an attempt to steal Barbaras money.
AARPs Fraud Watch connection can help you spot and avoid scams.
