One day, a call from someone claiming to be from theSocial Security Administrationleaves her rattled.
He says her information has been compromised and she must work quickly to convert her money intogold bars.
[00:00:03] Bob: So they drive up to your house?
They pop swing open the box on the floor of my living room and count.
They didn’t say hardly anything.
They left with my money.
And I remember thinking, they’re walking out of my house with half of my life savings.
(MUSIC SEGUE)
[00:00:29] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam.
I’m your host, Bob Sullivan.
But increasingly, in-person, real-life meetings have become a part of online crime.
Today’s story involves a situation like that.
But it comes as a very serious cautionary tale we hope you’ll tell your loved ones about it.
Meet Lori English who was happily enjoying her hobbies during early retirement when our story starts.
Hobbies like singing and playing the guitar.
Where the folks are fine, and the world is mine on Blue Bayou.”
[00:02:08] Bob: Oh my God, I’m melting over here.
[00:02:10] Lori English: Ah.
[00:02:11] Bob: That was fantastic.
[00:02:12] Lori English: Thank you.
[00:02:13] Bob: I’m a big Linda Ronstadt fan, of course, so.
[00:02:17] Lori English: Yes.
[00:02:20] Bob: Lori lives with her pets in Ohio.
[00:02:24] Lori English: I’m in Pataskala, Ohio.
[00:02:27] Bob: So it’s in Licking County, right?
[00:02:29] Lori English: Yes.
[00:02:30] Bob: So where is Licking County?
[00:02:32] Lori English: It is in central Ohio.
[00:02:35] Bob: So it’s maybe, it’s east of Columbus, right?
By like an hour or so?
We’re about from Columbus proper to Pataskala proper, it’s about a half an hour.
[00:02:53] Lori English: It has grown by leaps and bounds.
[00:03:05] Lori English: Where I live exactly, yes, it is rural.
I’m out in the country on 13 acres.
[00:03:10] Bob: It sounds very beautiful.
What was your job before then?
[00:03:16] Lori English: Administrative assistant.
[00:03:17] Bob: You were an administrative assistant.
[00:03:19] Lori English: Did that for over 25 years, yeah.
And I am on a horse farm, and I have my own animals and pets.
I work with them quite a bit, just spending time with friends and visiting family, and yeah.
[00:03:46] Bob: And as you now know, she also plays guitar and sings.
[00:03:52] Bob: What genre?
[00:03:52] Lori English: Oh, gosh.
Everything, it’s easier to say what I don’t do.
[00:03:58] Bob: Good for you.
[00:04:02] Bob: Give me some band names.
Patsy Cline’s one of my favorites.
Etta James, yeah, all kinds of different stuff.
That familiar sunrise, your sleepy eyes, how happy I’d be."
[00:04:55] Bob: Making lunch or something, right?
[00:04:56] Lori English: Probably, yeah.
[00:04:58] Bob: What’s the first thing the person says?
So I picked it up.
[00:05:20] Bob: Oh my God.
So what’s…
[00:05:22] Lori English: Yeah.
[00:05:22] Bob: …what’s your first thought?
[00:05:24] Lori English: My first thought was, oh my God.
[00:05:34] Bob: Traffic drugs, major cartels?
[00:05:47] Lori English: And before I could say anything, he passed me onto another person.
[00:06:17] Bob: And so another person takes over the conversation.
He says his name is Steven Collins.
[00:06:42] Bob: But he wants you to liquidate your funds.
[00:06:44] Lori English: Right.
And I said, “What does that mean?”
If you’re indicted, if you’re indicted, if you’re indicted."
Oh man, I was scared to death.
[00:07:06] Bob: “If you’re indicted.
If you’re indicted.”
The words keep repeating in her head over and over.
He asked me what my balances were.
And I did that.
And then he told me to put that in a safe place.
So I did that.
Oh, my fricking God.
And I said, I said are the, “Do these people know who I am?
Am I, am I safe?
Should I be scared?”
[00:08:04] Bob: Oh boy.
[00:08:09] Lori English: It did.
[00:08:23] Bob: And just for, just for some context.
[00:08:30] Lori English: Yes.
[00:08:31] Bob: So this is pretty freaky.
[00:08:32] Lori English: Yes.
Who’s going to take care of my animals?
I had to get my affairs in order and try not to look suspicious about it.
[00:09:00] Bob: What were you going to do with them?
So I had that knowledge that they would be cared for.
[00:09:24] Bob: … to take responsibility for your pets, wow.
[00:09:26] Lori English: Yeah, my, my family would have taken them.
[00:09:29] Bob: Almost immediately, Lori empties her bank accounts as instructed.
[00:09:34] Bob: Do, do you remember roughly how much it was?
[00:09:36] Lori English: It was only a few grand.
[00:09:38] Bob: And where, where did you put that money?
[00:09:39] Lori English: I put that in my safe here at home.
[00:09:41] Bob: Steven checks in with Lori as she empties her bank accounts.
Are you going to be going out?
Give me a call when you get back home, you know do whatever you better do.
[00:10:15] Lori English: Hmm-hm.
“How are you doing?
Do you need anything?
Can I help you?”
And you know he was very much a compassionate character.
And I would say, “Yeah, I need these people off my back.
I need you to clear my name.”
[00:10:59] Bob: Withdraw half your Roth money and go buy gold?
[00:11:23] Bob: Hmm.
Change my portfolio."
And I had to lie and convince him.
[00:11:42] Bob: And so how much money was this about?
[00:11:44] Lori English: This was about 250 grand.
[00:11:47] Bob: Wow.
[00:11:48] Lori English: Yeah.
[00:11:52] Lori English: 40 years or work.
And people were buying that amount of gold regularly.
He said, “We have eyes on you.
You’ll be perfectly safe.
Don’t worry.”
[00:12:30] Bob: Wow.
So you think someone’s following you into the store basically.
[00:12:33] Lori English: Yeah.
And I’m thinking, okay, that must be him.
I mean could you carry that much gold home?
[00:12:52] Lori English: Yes.
It, it surprised me.
[00:12:59] Bob: Really?
[00:12:59] Lori English: Yes.
[00:13:01] Bob: Oh wow.
[00:13:02] Lori English: And it was, maybe 10 pounds, not even 10 pounds probably.
[00:13:09] Bob: Yeah, I’m picturing you needing a wagon or something for this.
[00:13:12] Lori English: I know.
Yeah, it was just in a small pizza box throw in thing.
[00:13:16] Bob: Wow.
[00:13:16] Lori English: Yeah.
She doesn’t have to wait long.
Three men will come pick up the gold tomorrow, she’s told.
[00:13:36] Lori English: They’re not going to know anything about this.
They’re just there to pick it up.
So you don’t need to ask them any questions.
you’re free to be polite, but don’t really talk to them."
[00:13:43] Bob: So they drive up to your house?
They bring up the box on the floor of my living room and count.
They didn’t say hardly anything.
They left with my money.
And I remember thinking, they’re walking out of my house with half of my life savings.
But it’s okay because I’ve got Steven on the phone with me.
He’s got me.
[00:14:09] Bob: Right, right.
And also, I mean you expected them.
[00:14:17] Lori English: Hmm-hm.
[00:14:19] Bob: Wow.
[00:14:25] Lori English: Not really.
I was glad to have the gold out of my house.
[00:14:36] Bob: Hmm, I’m sure.
[00:14:38] Bob: It’s now been a couple of months since that first phone call.
And this major transaction is now finished, but Lori’s unease is only growing.
[00:14:47] Bob: And you, you haven’t told a soul any of this.
[00:14:49] Lori English: Not a single soul.
[00:14:51] Bob: Ah, that seems to be isolating.
[00:15:39] Bob: He’s having a really rough time clearing her name.
So she’s told she’ll have to empty the rest of her Roth IRA.
[00:15:48] Lori English: So it was the same process, the same thing happened.
So I went and got the second batch of gold.
And, and then the same day two guys came to pick it up.
[00:16:01] Bob: But two different guys.
[00:16:03] Lori English: Uh-huh, yes.
[00:16:10] Lori English: Yeah, they have everything.
And I had about two grand to my name.
[00:16:14] Bob: Days go by.
Two weeks go by.
And there’s no news.
But then the call she’s been waiting for comes.
[00:16:22] Lori English: I think it was a Tuesday morning.
It’s like 9 o’clock in the morning, and I’m still asleep.
And he says, “We did it.
We got you cleared.
All you have to do is go to your Pataskala police station.
They’ve got your paperwork; they’ll take care of everything.
you might now tell the story.
So, well okay, yeah, whoo-hoo.
[00:16:52] Bob: Okay.
And she said, “Well he’s not, he’s on vacation this week.”
[00:17:01] Bob: Oh…
[00:17:02] Lori English: Yeah, exactly.
And so she, she was so sweet.
She tried; she called people; they didn’t know anything about this.
So I called Steven, and I said, “What’s going on?
They don’t know anything.”
He said, “Okay,” he said, “I’m sorry.”
And I’m thinking, the Auditor’s Office?
Why in the heck would I go to the Auditor’s Office?
Well, whatever, I’ll go.
She says, “All we do here is payroll for the county.”
And she said, “Let’s go talk to the Deputy Director, or the Deputy Auditor.”
She was so kind, they both were, and started to tell the story.
And I realized something was very, very wrong.
And the woman said, “I think I need to call the Sheriff’s Department.”
And I said, and so I’m still brainwashed.
I said, “No, no, no.
yo don’t do that, don’t do that.
I’ll, I’ll find out what’s going on.”
Instead, she calls Steven.
And I said, “What is going on?”
And he said, “I’m in a meeting, the very last meeting for you.
I’ll call you back in a minute.
Go on…” I said, “I’m going home.”
He said, “That’s fine.”
So I scream, I hang up the phone, and I call 911.
That he had been putting on a fake accent for the past 212 months.
And when she calls 911, she can hardly speak.
The 911 operator helps.
[00:19:36] Bob: I can’t imagine what the moment was like for you.
[00:19:39] Lori English: I still puts me in knots.
[00:19:47] Lori English: That poor guy, he was so wonderful.
He was so patient with me because I was hysterical.
He said, “I’m going to call this guy and see if he can come over.”
[00:20:24] Bob: The victim’s advocate brings out a US Secret Service agent the next say.
(giggles) And so…
[00:20:38] Bob: Good for you.
[00:20:38] Lori English: So then, yeah, and so they, they of course obliged.
But they came in and the, the Secret Service agent was, was really helpful.
He said, “We’re pretty sure this is Chinese organized crime.”
And that scared me even more.
[00:20:53] Bob: Yeah.
[00:21:17] Bob: Oh my God.
[00:21:18] Lori English: So they are good.
They are very, very good.
And he, so that helped if, you know, through the circumstances.
But…
[00:21:26] Bob: I, I’m sure, yeah.
[00:21:33] Lori English: He said that the chances are I’d never see it.
[00:21:35] Bob: Had that reality hit you?
[00:21:36] Lori English: Yeah, I knew I’d never see it.
[00:21:41] Lori English: Right.
[00:21:43] Bob: God.
[00:21:43] Lori English: So thank God for Licking County and all the programs that they have.
I’ve been able to get a lot of assistance.
The money is stolen, and the banks and law enforcement can’t get it back.
Well, today, dear listener, we have quite a surprise ending for you.
[00:22:19] Bob: What comes out of your mouth?
[00:22:21] Lori English: Oh my God!
They had a, a suspicious vehicle APB out on, on their vehicle anyway.
[00:22:49] Bob: This was like two weeks after the fact?
[00:22:51] Lori English: yes.
[00:22:53] Bob: They’re like driving around with your gold?
[00:23:09] Bob: Yeah, this is super weird.
[00:23:10] Lori English: They also found drugs in the vehicle.
[00:23:12] Bob: Yeah.
I mean that’s just, that’s a crazy story.
[00:23:15] Lori English: Yes, it is.
And it’s like divine intervention or something, I don’t know.
[00:23:25] Lori English: That, that batch was 240, 240,000.
[00:23:31] Bob: So this is life changing information.
[00:23:33] Lori English: Yes.
It put me back on my feet to some extent.
[00:23:37] Bob: Life changing information.
[00:23:55] Lori English: Right.
So…
[00:23:57] Bob: So how did that work?
They had to process it through Oklahoma.
They had to work out how they were going to get it here.
They could ship it, whatever.
So I got the real gold back.
I went back to the company I bought it from, and they bought it back from me.
[00:25:04] Lori English: I did not.
They did not charge me any fees.
[00:25:08] Bob: I’m glad to hear that.
[00:25:28] Lori English: Yes, yes.
[00:25:33] Bob: Hmm.
[00:25:37] Lori English: It was.
I, like I said, we’ve known each other for 20 years.
[00:26:11] Lori English: Yeah.
Two years in prison.
Two years monitored probation and restitution.
And these two guys have nothing.
They’re just mules.
They’re just mules.
[00:26:33] Lori English: Its not a resolution to me because they didn’t do it.
They’re not the ones who did it.
They’re just mules.
They were just doing what they were told.
My brother asked me that same question.
He said, “So do you feel a sense of closure?”
I said, “Absolutely not.”
This is Chinese organized crime.
[00:27:07] Bob: Yeah, of course, wow.
[00:27:08] Lori English: And those are the people I want to reach.
[00:27:11] Bob: So that’s why Lori agreed to speak with us.
[00:27:50] Lori English: Right.
[00:27:51] Bob: You know, it’s, yeah.
[00:28:00] Lori English: Right, exactly.
You’re an idiot, exactly.
[00:28:01] Bob: Yeah.
They never asked me for personal information.
Nothing of any kind.
Well, I didn’t.
‘Cause they never asked me.
They went for the jugular from the get-go.
How are you doing today?
[00:28:37] Lori English: I’m doing pretty well.
But I’m doing okay.
Just trying to find a job.
[00:29:03] Bob: But you still look over your shoulder sometimes you said, right?
[00:29:06] Lori English: Yeah, I do.
Because I’m the throw in of person, I love to have my windows and doors open.
And I just kept my eyes, I was just about ready to call 911 when they pulled away.
I think they were just looking, talking on the phone or something.
But that kind of thing really unnerves me.
I see them frequently different times of the day and night.
[00:29:40] Bob: Wow, that’s great.
[00:29:41] Lori English: Yeah, it is.
It really makes me feel better.
And they honk and wave which is really cool.
[00:29:44] Bob: (laughs)
[00:29:46] Lori English: Yeah.
[00:29:47] Bob: You’re on a first name basis with them all.
[00:29:49] Lori English: I, I probably, I feel like I am.
[00:29:58] Bob: Oh my God.
[00:29:59] Lori English: Yeah, they’ve been great.
And verify, verify, verify no matter what they throw at you, no matter what.
If it’s a phone call, you’re able to always hang up and call the cops.
Hang up, call the cops.
I wish I had done that.
I wish I’d never answered the phone.
That scared me to death when he said that.
[00:31:03] Bob: It’s scared Lori to death.
SSA OIG agents will never pick up money at your door or in any punch in of exchange.
This is a scam.
Never exchange money or funds of any kind with any individual stating they are an SSA OIG agent.
This new scam trend introduces an element of physical danger to scams that never existed before.”
[00:32:22] AJ Monaco: It, it’s really soul crushing to see that.
It, it’s just, it’s absolutely horrifying to see that happen to a human being.
[00:33:05] Bob: Let me just get it as clear from you as I can.
Will someone from Social Security show up at your house and ask for cash?
[00:33:10] AJ Monaco: Absolutely not.
It’s, it’s more commonplace that you would find something wrong before the SSA does.
There’s a huge potential for some sort of physical altercation.
[00:35:08] Bob: What’s really going on here?
Why are criminals showing up at victims’ homes?
[00:35:50] AJ Monaco: No, I think that’s right.
This in person con is, is hard to track.
If there’s no camera, there’s no trace.
[00:36:34] Bob: They sort of get off the grid that way, right?
[00:36:36] AJ Monaco: They do, that’s right, that’s right.
How unusual is that?
It’s, it’s easily transportable.
That’s just what it sounds like.
Lately the Social Security Administration has been invoked in these kind of scams.
There are fewer now, but still, big money is involved.
That’s going to be, you know, in the billions.
Six, six billion, 10 billion, or somewhere in the billions just for government impostor scams.
[00:38:09] Bob: I mean that’s like a Fortune 500 company.
[00:38:10] AJ Monaco: It’s a Fortune 500 company.
[00:38:13] Bob: Why are government impersonation scams so persuasive?
But technology helps too.
So technology is certainly um, certainly part of that as well.
[00:39:20] AJ Monaco: It is.
It is, and you want to believe that.
That’s the problem is they take advantage of that.
Um, we want to be happy people and believe that our government is doing the right thing.
[00:39:42] Bob: The latest crime trend AJ sees is something he calls a hybrid scam.
So it’s really a hybrid scam.
And now they’ve introduced you into the Social Security scam through the backdoor, if you will.
And they’re, and they seem to be very successful and very believable that way.
[00:40:30] Bob: Government officials like AJ are trying to nab as many criminals as they can.
So, so what, what other thing can we do?"
We put things out, our communications folks, they are really good about um, posting things.
We, we put out scam alerts.
That’s the best way to prevent this and stop it.
[00:41:34] Bob: Yeah, I mean that took us maybe 20 years, right?
[00:41:36] AJ Monaco: Yeah, that’s, unfortunately that’s the truth.
He calls this list the Four Ps.
Purports to be from somewhere, right?
Somebody in, in, in authority that contacts you.
And then the second P is that they, they give you some sort of problem.
There’s a problem.
So they, they apply this pressure, and they’re very good at it.
[00:43:09] Bob: I’ve got to get myself out of this.
Just stop texting or email.
And share stories like the one you’ve heard today about dangerous impersonatings on The Perfect Scam.
[00:43:39] Bob: It really is that serious.
Go to aarp.org/watchdogalerts to sign up.
Call the AARP Fraud Watch connection Helpline at 877-908-3360.
Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next.
That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org.
Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
For AARP’s The Perfect Scam, I’m Bob Sullivan.
