While her life is full, she would like to have someone to share it with.
After weeks of daily texts and phone calls, they plan to meet.
However, Russell doesnt turn out to be who he says he is.
After Russell steals almost $60,000 from her, Debbie bravely decides to tell her story.
[00:00:05] Debbie Fox: I said, “Look, it would be complicated.
I would need to sell stock and there’s a tax consequence.
Its, I just don’t have money just available.”
But I told him, I said, “No, I, I really just can’t.”
And the answer was no.
(MUSIC SEGUE)
[00:00:54] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam.
I’m your host, Bob Sullivan.
As always, we begin with a story.
And it also really helps the criminals.
Let me show you how.
[00:02:04] Debbie Fox: I did.
[00:02:05] Bob: Tell me where you went.
Went to Cuba and spent nearly two weeks there for dancing.
[00:02:43] Debbie Fox: …for a week.
Yes, I know.
[00:02:45] Bob: It sounds like a novel.
[00:02:46] Debbie Fox: It really, yes, pinch me, it was pretty extraordinary.
And then to Barcelona and the island of Menorca, and to Tuscany.
[00:03:01] Debbie Fox: you’re free to tell, right.
And I started an online business, so yes, I’m a couch potato.
[00:03:19] Bob: Debbie is not one to sit around.
She got into Latin dancing later in life.
[00:03:25] Debbie Fox: So I’ve been widowed for 1112 years.
And along the way I met another um, widow who’s become a best friend.
I didn’t need someone.
But I was open to, to exploring and sharing with someone.
[00:05:10] Bob: Never more content, but willing to share with someone.
And so, Debbie joins an online dating site, but not just any site.
And, and off when I had really busy parts of my life that I was enjoying.
My draw was to find someone who had more of a global perspective.
And sure enough, someone fits the bill.
His name is Russell.
So I reached, I made the connection.
And then he said he’d like to continue to keep in touch.
No opposition there at all.
So it was in-depth.
[00:07:25] Bob: So the connect every day, sometimes twice a day for six weeks.
you’re able to get to know someone pretty well in six weeks.
[00:07:33] Bob: Did you discuss going out to California or he coming to Colorado?
[00:07:37] Debbie Fox: We did both of those things actually.
I invited him to Colorado at Thanksgiving when I believed that my kids would be here also.
So there was conversation around those, those potential meetings.
[00:08:40] Debbie Fox: Yeah, very much so.
[00:09:38] Bob: And when Russell gets to Saudi Arabia, things get far more complicated.
[00:09:43] Debbie Fox: So then hes taken to court.
He’s required as the, the business owner, the project lead to make restitution for these families.
But he was affluent enough so he was self-insured.
And so he needed help doing transfers from his business account to wires.
So he coached me, he sent me get in information for his bank account.
He withheld the password, he actually told that to me over the phone.
I got on, online.
It was a bank in Nevada.
And she sees that he indeed has a sizeable bank account.
The transaction went through.
Then he needed to…
[00:12:49] Bob: Well, could I just clarify for a second.
[00:12:51] Debbie Fox: Yes.
[00:12:51] Bob: Youre moving his money around for him.
[00:12:52] Debbie Fox: Im moving his money around for him.
[00:12:56] Bob: But then, something else goes wrong.
I sign in again, same result.
So his account is frozen.
So now he cannot reach the $10 million he needed to pay restitution for these families.
And so Russell asks Debbie for a different kind of help this time.
He asks for money.
But Debbie, well she is already prepared for that.
[00:14:28] Debbie Fox: So he was short $48,000.
And I said, “You know, I really can’t.
My investments are tied up in retirement funds.”
I don’t want you to think badly."
And so that was that.
[00:15:04] Bob: And so that was that.
Well, not quite.
A few days go by and Russell brings up the $48,000 loan again.
[00:15:14] Debbie Fox: And I said, “Look, it would be complicated.
But I told him, I said, “No, I, I really just can’t.”
And the answer was no.
But he’s been kind and we’ve had this great interaction all the way through.
So I was really conflicted.
So she decides to take another one.
And so I wired funds to a business in Florida, traditional banking, so USD.
So I send the wire and I am an absolute puddle.
I am a nervous wreck this whole time.
I get to the car.
But he calls me and he said, “How are you?”
And I said, “I am a mess.”
Thank you for doing that.”
That put me at ease.
[00:17:58] Bob: So Debbie feels like her risk has paid off.
Their relationship was at a crossroads and now its taken a step forward.
A big step forward.
Far enough forward that she decides to tell her family about it.
First of all, they’re, my kids are adults, they’re amazing, they’re accomplished.
They do not want to hear about their mom’s dating life.
And I poo-pooed her.
And I gave her my whole Cuba spiel.
So I leave there and I come home back to Colorado.
And she starts digging on her own.
Now she’s a data scientist, so she’s extremely analytic.
She does not like what she’s seeing at all.
I want you to be in a relationship but I don’t like what I’m seeing."
So she’s now bringing this to my attention.
And it’s, we’re not in each other’s business of my family.
They live, theyre independent, I raised them to be independent.
Its like you’re going behind my back and, you know, without me telling her this.
But I’m listening, I’m giving her space to express herself.
Like it was a weird moment to be in.
And he said, “Debbie, you’re not saying anything.”
And so he pulls it out of me, and I tell him.
So were having a really rational, adult conversation.
Putting some pretty hard topics out there.
At no point in time did he ever become defensive.
[00:22:57] Debbie Fox: And I thought, okay.
This is a setup, I just felt it.
And I told him.
And sure enough, it did.
And it was hard, and it was uncomfortable.
So I’m connected to him.
[00:24:35] Bob: But before they hang up, Russell has a new problem.
He needed $100,000 to fund that new account.
So he was just $10,000 short.
[00:25:17] Bob: Hes $10,000 short.
They talk about it and, and Debbie decides again that she can lend Russell the money.
Its actually a much easier request for her to fulfill than last time, but its not that easy.
[00:25:31] Debbie Fox: And I said, I can give you the 10.
I said, I would need it back quickly.
So I, I did that second 10,000.
[00:26:06] Debbie Fox: And he said, Our boy, Russells in trouble.
Im asked… sending him a message.
I need authentication of who you are, credentials, and this doesnt make sense.
People can have bad luck, but this is the third pretty significant mishap; something doesnt feel right.
And so now Im messaging Russell, and hes not responding, so Im sending him a WhatsApp message.
Im calling him on WhatsApp.
It goes to voicemail.
And he responds, How dare you threaten me or accuse me of scamming.
[00:28:01] Bob: This is a new Russell.
[00:28:20] Debbie Fox: So I, I knew Id been scammed at that moment.
[00:28:26] Debbie Fox: Crushing.
The, the most horrific devastation you’re free to even imagine.
Im alone in my home, Im isolated, Ive given this man my trust.
I care about this person.
I am absolutely crushed.
Im sobbing, the deep guttural sob where you could barely breathe.
I feel sick to my stomach.
I drop to the floor.
[00:29:15] Bob: And, and youve been through a lot in your life.
[00:29:27] Debbie Fox: He, 16 months he suffered from cancer.
I was at his bedside when he died.
Life has not always been easy.
[00:30:01] Bob: And yet, this moment feels like the worst of all.
[00:30:05] Debbie Fox: Second worst of all.
She calls her financial advisor, and then she calls a close friend.
[00:30:39] Debbie Fox: She, I know her through widowhood.
She is one of the wisest people I know and she does not place judgment.
I have to face the consequences…this is the moment.
She doesnt take that decision lightly.
He said, Knowing you as I know you, do you have any other choice?
I said, No.
I said, Should I be anonymous or go, you know with my face and my name?
I think that my name will have more credibility.
[00:31:46] Bob: So she goes on Denvers 9News and tells her story.
I am just literally sick to my stomach, like literally.
I am in disbelief.
It is raw emotion.
[00:33:29] Bob: Its, its really skin crawling.
Um, theyre, theyre cruel.
Theyre just really cruel, right?
[00:33:56] Debbie Fox: Yeah, She wasnt a victim, she was a willing participant.
All that money to someone she never met.
Im glad Im not hungry for love.
Is this a mental disorder?
A normal person would never send money to someone they never met in person.
If you get the urge to send money to a stranger, stop.
Turn off your internet and never look back.
She gave the money away.
She just, she lost nothing.
Now she whines to the news to rescue her.
Shes an embarrassment as an adult.
(laugh) Touche!
[00:35:00] Bob: Just give me your gut reaction to what you saw.
[00:35:02] Erin West: It just broke my heart, it’s just awful.
[00:35:40] Erin West: Oh, youre absolutely right.
[00:36:11] Erin West: Okay, from Sherri, This is her fault.
Law enforcement has felonies to deal with.
Stupid decisions, no one to blame.
[00:36:18] Bob: What do you think of that?
So, “This is her fault.”
No, it isn’t.
Here’s the thing.
We are dealing with a threat actor that is skilled in manipulating the brains of its victims.
These scammers are trained in how to brainwash victims in using really sophisticated psychological techniques.
So the idea that this is her fault, this is not her fault.
She’s a regular person who would like companionship like everybody else in the world.
So I take issue with that.
Second, “Law enforcement has felonies to deal with.”
So law enforcement actually has no bigger felony to deal with than what happened to Debbie Fox.
[00:38:03] Erin West: Ugh, Look in the mirror.
You will only attract scammers.
Learn to engage in volunteer work.
Engage with your family because @YourPrinceCharming turned into a frog."
I mean my goodness, what a horrible thing to say to someone.
You will only attract scammers, as though no one could possibly be interested in a woman over 50.
She should be at home gardening and taking care of cats.
[00:39:36] Erin West: Okay, so Lee Still says, “HE.
All capital letters, all periods.
Like this guy really needed to sit down and, and let us know his thoughts on this.
He needed to dig in and let us know because he obviously is the expert on all of this.
He understands how it all works.
(sigh) And then the smiling, laughing so hard he’s crying emoji at the end.
It’s like, well, I don’t see a crime here because you sent him that money.
And while she sent this person money, he didn’t go into her bank and took it.
What he did was use sophisticated tactics to manipulate her into doing something she wouldn’t ordinarily do.
And that is theft by false pretenses.
He led her to believe things that were not true, and he manipulated her.
That’s, that’s a crime.
[00:40:55] Bob: Thats a crime.
[00:41:11] Bob: Didnt this really hurt?
Didnt they hurt you?
Im now connected to other victims who have lost way more than I. I just, you know, my shield is back up.
I have regained my power, and Ill do what I can in this space to enact change.
[00:43:54] Debbie Fox: To be honest, I dont, what would I say?
I do think its, its a frailty within our community, within our society.
Im having a really bad day.
And I thought to myself, you are right.
I cant even fathom what youre going through.
And so I stopped judging.
Who are we to judge the decisions that they make, good or bad?
And so I think that of these negative commentors.
Its like, you dont know me.
You dont know how full and robust my life is.
Like I do it all because I love life and living.
We need more empathy to be understanding and accepting of other humans.
Thats what I would say.
And we all know and understand that silence helps the criminals.
But its more than that.
And so we know that it’s happening.
And you might understand how, wow, this is happening to people in my circle.
[00:47:57] Erin West: You couldnt be more right.
It’s a real problem.
And we talk about it every time we present on this.
That is a beating that some people just are not set up to endure.
[00:50:22] Erin West: One hundred percent, these are crimes.
Absolutely they are crimes.
He led her to believe a lot of different things that turned out to not be true.
All of these are crimes.
And the answer is no, always no.
And, and the reason why is you’re really putting yourself, you’re really exposing yourself.
The idea of putting your face in the community that you live and saying I…
It’s just a lack of understanding.
I think its enough to make people suicidal.
It’s enough to make people really, really question their, their whole lives.
It’s just, it’s, it’s a terrible beating.
So it just, the media is a huge part of how we fight this crime.
[00:53:28] Bob: Because the criminals win when we do that.
[00:53:30] Erin West: One hundred percent!
Thats exactly what happens, and theyre already winning.
Lets let the people talk and lets be empathetic when we listen to them.
[00:55:00] Debbie Fox: I said, I, full disclosure, I messed up.
And he said, No!
And I said, Yes.
Were going to just view this as a bad investment.
I was one of the lucky ones to not lose the shirt off my back.
So I know the fight in me.
Now I have to be careful that Im not jeopardizing my own healing in this process.
I know that my, my physical manifestations when Im in trouble and I need help.
Im really saddened that this is the culture in which we live.
We all experience good and bad to some degree.
But when bad hits us, our power is how we respond in that moment.
So we can decide to move forward or to let it take us down.
My resilience is to move forward, forward is the only direction.
[00:56:41] Bob: Forward is the only direction.
And as I promised, let me explain how you’re free to help too.
Little things can make a big difference.
it’s possible for you to be that kind friend who offers empathy and nonjudgmental help.
you’re free to point out to others theyre being cruel or mean or even just judgmental.
Look, its human nature to ask, how could this happen?
Your words really do matter.
For The Perfect Scam, Im Bob Sullivan.
Call the AARP Fraud Watch internet Helpline at 877-908-3360.
Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next.
That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org.
Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
For AARP’s The Perfect Scam, I’m Bob Sullivan.
