I’m your host, Bob Sullivan.
Cyberspace is teeming with criminals who are constantly coming up with new lies to steal your money.
Many work as part of an organized crime gang.
We talk about them every week here at The Perfect Scam.
None is more famous than a man who goes by the name Jim Browning.
What Jim Browning does is dangerous, so we wouldn’t want any of you to try it.
(phone ring)
[00:01:19] Thank you for dialing support.
How can I help you?
[00:01:21] Hello, yes, I’ve got a problem on my computer.
It seems to be locked.
There’s a warning message.
[00:01:28] What is the warning message?
Can you hey read it for me?
[00:01:31] Yes, it says “security warning, Microsoft warning alert.”
It says something about Facebook logins and credit card details.
[00:01:40] All right.
So you don’t need to worry about that.
I will help you.
You’re listening to a scam.
You probably received a call that sounds something like this, hopefully you just hung up.
But here’s what happens if you don’t.
A criminal will offer to help fix your machine.
It’s not really broken, and perhaps attempt to charge you a few hundred dollars or worse.
The criminal might offer a refund for your tech trouble, and then this might happen.
[00:02:16] Looks like ma’am, I have made a mistake out here.
What is the balance you’re able to see right now in your checking account, ma’am?
[00:02:22] (inaudible)
[00:02:23] All right, ma’am, yes ma’am.
[00:02:38] Bob: The panicked operator then begs the woman to send the $15,000 back.
Of course, there was no mistake in credit.
It’s just a way to steal $15,000.
This is a call being monitored by an internet vigilante who goes by the name of Jim Browning.
[00:03:37] Bank Manager: Yes, sir.
So at the bank.
[00:03:43] Jim Browning: Okay.
[00:03:48] Bank Manager: I know, just a second.
Let me ask, did she withdraw $14,000?
[00:03:53] No, set it up for online banking.
[00:03:54] Bank Manager: She set up online bank–, okay.
[00:03:55] Actually we did it…
[00:03:56] We shut it down.
[00:04:02] Jim Browning: Okay.
[00:04:02] Bank Manager: We just shut it down.
[00:04:30] Jim Browning: How long have you been doing the scamming?
[00:04:34] Sir, I’m not scamming you.
[00:04:37] Jim Browning: Well, of course, you are.
That’s a fake virus message, so of course you’re scamming me.
Undoubtedly…
[00:04:45] Oh no, I’m here to help you.
[00:04:53] Because you don’t know who I am.
[00:04:54] Jim Browning: I do.
[00:04:54] Same way I don’t know who you are.
[00:04:56] Jim Browning: I do.
[00:05:03] I’m sorry, where am I?
[00:05:05] Jim Browning: Where are you, yeah.
[00:05:06] My room.
[00:05:07] Jim Browning: Where, what city.
[00:05:08] I’m in my room.
[00:05:09] Jim Browning: Obviously, but so am I.
That doesn’t tell me anything.
So which city are you in?
[00:05:14] Yeah.
[00:05:15] Jim Browning: Okay, I’ll have a go.
(inaudible)
[00:05:17] In California.
[00:05:19] Jim Browning: No, you’re not.
See, you’re lying again.
You’re in Gurugram.
[00:05:25] Bob: How’s does Jim Browning do that?
He hacks into their computers.
When they call him and attempt to take over his PC, he does the same to them.
It’s probably illegal, but he thinks it’s worth the risk.
That let him watch in real time as criminals attempt to talk victims into sending money.
It also made Jim Browning internet famous.
YouTube videos of his confrontations with scammers get millions of views.
This video gives a unique view of how these scams operate and who these scammers really are.
[00:06:14] Critical alert from Microsoft.
He is currently uploading phone numbers of people who will be his next potential victims.
But we never really knew what was behind it.
And we would just Skype together.
We’d turn the cameras off, ‘cause he didn’t even want me to see who he was.
I’m like, “Well, well, well, wait a minute.
What, what, we can’t let her do that.
What should we do?”
So he’d call me and say, “I need this woman’s phone number.”
I’d give him the phone numbers.
At which point the money is gone.
because there’s no way to get it back.
[00:09:43] Doug Shadel: I, yeah, it really was like that.
[00:09:59] Doug Shadel: Right.
[00:10:00] Bob: And then you find it’s too late.
How did that feels?
[00:10:04] Doug Shadel: It’s enormously frustrating.
[00:10:17] Bob: The success stories stick with Doug.
“Well I don’t have $40,000 in my account right now.”
The clerk kind of knows him.
He says he wants to buy these cards.
Did you get a call?
Was this because of a call?"
And if I don’t do this, they’re going to just take all of my money. "
Do not buy those gift cards, I’ll explain it to you."
He goes, “Yeah, but you don’t understand.
They’ve got all my money.”
“No, they don’t.
I’ve been watching the whole situation.
[00:12:18] Bob: Who is Jim?
Well, we know he know he works in IT.
Doug knows a little more about him.
He’s verified a lot of details in Jim’s stories.
But otherwise, he’s a mystery.
I’ve got, let’s say a number of computers that I can see.
They’re owned by scammers.
[00:13:42] Bob: you’re free to think of Jim as a digital age superhero.
Mild-mannered IT guy during the day, defender of people at night.
How did he get started?
Jim says there was no made for TV moment.
Um, nobody likes getting those calls.
[00:15:28] Bob: So the first time you tried anything like this, was it premeditated?
Or were you just, all, all right, that’s it.
I’m, I’m engaging here.
How did it go?
[00:15:39] Jim Browning: Yeah, well no, not, not premeditated at all.
[00:16:08] Bob: What Jim did then is called scam baiting.
That just might save someone else from becoming a victim.
Anyway, Jim’s hack/back technique took scam baiting to another level.
[00:16:53] Jim Browning: Yeah, I mean it was quite slow progress.
I think I’ve um, put videos on since 2014 or 2015, so six years.
Um over that time.
[00:17:36] Bob: Despite building a group of avid fans, Jim was frustrated.
Until, that is, the BBC aired a piece about this call center security video hack.
[00:18:46] Bob: Jim nearly got to watch the arrest happen in real time.
[00:19:39] Bob: The call center’s owner and an accomplice where arrested outside Delhi in India.
Jim witnesses a lot of pain and suffering.
[00:20:06] Jim Browning: I’ve encountered people who are uh severely disabled sometimes.
I think that’s one of the more horrific things.
I’ve heard other things like even kids being scammed, but I think that one stands out particularly.
[00:21:00] Bob: When he can, he tries to help.
It’s harder than you might think, however.
[00:21:05] Jim Browning: I try my best to intervene when I can.
Sometimes it’s impossible though.
kindly look out for them because they’re being scammed.”
And you have to then give a very elaborate explanation about why I’m making the phone call.
So it can be quite difficult.
[00:22:40] Bob: So this is a real thing.
You’re on hold with a bank while watching someone get thousands of dollars stolen from them.
[00:22:47] Jim Browning: Yeah, yep.
I was on the phone call for about five or six minutes.
[00:23:44] Bob: So here’s how old I am.
You should call your bank."
[00:24:07] Jim Browning: Yep, exactly that, yeah.
You must face that, and when you face that, what do you do?
I will tell them, “Look, I can see that somebody’s being scammed here.”
And usually give them enough information like, here’s the last four digits of their account number.
They have exactly this amount of money in there, and here’s the name of the person.
But it’s actually more difficult talking to the victims.
[00:24:51] Bob: Doug has seen Jim talk agitated victims away from the edge of a cliff.
He thinks Jim’s style is what helps him.
[00:24:58] Doug Shadel: My observation of it is Jim just has one of those voices.
[00:25:35] Jim Browning: I’m sorry.
Why have you gone all quiet?
Yeah, it’s quite spooky whenever somebody knows exactly who you are, where you are, yeah.
[00:25:51] Doug Shadel: Jim has cold steel running through his veins when it comes to this.
Where is the, where is the passion and the emotion?"
And I’m like, he’s an engineer.
[00:27:31] Bob: Doug thinks Jim has genuinely caught the consumer protection bug.
[00:27:36] Doug Shadel: I take it at face value.
Don’t you feel like it’s dangerous though?
So I am quite cautious about it.
[00:30:19] Jim Browning: A little bit.
And yeah, he was, he, he set himself up as a legitimate businessman.
But behind the scenes there’s a huge scamming operation behind it all.
But he was a, let’s say a medium-sized scamming organization.
And I’d say that one, he was kind of a medium-sized player.
There are much bigger players in India.
[00:32:03] Bob: And when I asked if he’s a hero, he deflects.
And if you call that heroic, fine, but it’s not the way I see it.
I, I earn a living from YouTube as well.
It’s not really about I am just looking at scams and seeing how they work.
I can’t, I couldn’t just watch a crime happening and not doing anything about it.
So I don’t think that’s heroic in any way.
I think it’s more a side effect of what I’m trying to do with scams.
That, that’s the way I describe it.
Listen as he explains the role of luck and of timing in scam work.
So it’s a numbers’ game for them.
[00:34:11] Bob: And also, it’s really obvious in his work.
Call center criminals are very good at what they do.
They’re often ready for any twist or turn a call can make.
Obviously, I didn’t use raise it."
[00:35:29] Bob: Doug has advice specific to the tech support scam that Jim works on.
Don’t freak out.
[00:36:01] Bob: I asked Doug, why did AARP do this story now?
That is super alarming.
That’s the difference between living a comfortable life in retirement and not.
Call the AARP Fraud Watch web connection Helpline at 877-908-3360.
Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next.
That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org.
Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Fed up with robocalls disrupting his day, Jim decides to fight back.
