[00:00:31] Julie: Welcome back to AARP’s The Perfect Scam.
Frank, it’s always so good to see you.
[00:00:41] Frank Abagnale: Great to be with you Julie, thank you.
[00:00:42] Julie: Good.
We also have a special guest, someone that you know quite well, right?
[00:01:03] Frank Abagnale: Yes.
I’m excited to speak with the two of you together and hear some stories about your family.
[00:01:14] Frank Abagnale: That’ll be great.
[00:01:15] Julie: Great.
[00:01:28] Kathie Gross: It was the worst fear and panic that I have ever felt.
[00:01:42] Julie: The call catches Kathie off guard.
It sounds like her daughter Jordan who she dropped off just an hour before.
[00:01:48] Kathie Gross: What I heard next was just, you know, insanity.
“Mom, mom?”
You know, just are you there?
And then I said, “Oh my God, Jordan, where are you?”
“I don’t know.
I think I’m on the freeway.
There are no windows.”
All this time I’m thinking, this is her.
Frank, are there other versions of this virtual kidnapping scam that people should look out for?
It’s tomorrow morning.
And, of course, that was all part of the scam.
The guy got on a boat.
He had no cell access.
She frantically tried calling him.
She called the hotel; he wasn’t in the room.
She couldn’t reach him.
And basically turned around and paid a ransom and wired the money.
And the husband got back at 6 o’clock.
He calls her, and she goes, “Are you okay?
You know, I got this call.”
He said, “No, I’ve been out on this fishing excursion.”
[00:03:31] Julie: Unfortunately that’s why this scam is so successful.
Victims are in such a state of fear that they’ll do anything to protect their loved ones.
[00:03:39] Frank Abagnale: Absolutely.
[00:03:40] Julie: So, we’ll talk more about this later.
In, in the meantime, I’m going to speak with Special Agent Erik Arbuthnot.
He’s part of the International Violent Crimes Unit in the Los Angeles Division of the FBI.
I flew out to visit Erik at their offices.
Joining him was the Bureau’s Public Information Officer Rukelt Dalberis.
[00:03:57] Julie: Hi, Erik, Julie Getz.
[00:03:59] Erik Arbuthnot: Hi, nice to meet you.
Welcome, welcome to the FBI.
[00:04:01] Julie: Hi, thank you.
Thank you for having me.
[00:04:02] Erik Arbuthnot: Nice to meet you.
[00:04:02] Julie: Rukelt.
[00:04:02] Rukelt Dalberis: Julie, nice to meet you, pleasure.
[00:04:04] Julie: Nice to meet you.
Thanks for having uh, The Perfect Scam Podcast here at FBI in West Covina.
[00:04:11] Erik Arbuthnot: Yep.
[00:04:12] Julie: Thanks so much.
[00:04:13] Erik Arbuthnot: LA Division.
[00:04:14] Julie: LA Division.
[00:04:15] Erik Arbuthnot: But, but uh this is the West Covina RA.
[00:04:17] Julie: Great.
[00:04:18] Erik Arbuthnot: Yeah.
[00:04:18] Julie: Well, thanks so much.
Do you mind if we go inside?
[00:04:19] Erik Arbuthnot: Yeah, come on in.
[00:04:20] Julie: Great, cool.
[00:04:22] Erik Arbuthnot: Thank you.
(walking into building)
[00:04:30] Julie: So, is it busy here?
All right, we’ve got the right code, so we can come on in.
[00:04:40] Julie: Okay, well thank you.
[00:05:08] Julie: Okay.
[00:05:08] Erik Arbuthnot: And then it starts all over again.
Besides the kitchen, the breakroom is important.
So then this is uh, the violent crime uh section.
Here’s the conference room.
And we’re right in here.
[00:05:27] Julie: Great.
[00:05:34] Erik Arbuthnot: Great.
[00:05:35] Julie: Great.
[00:05:35] Erik Arbuthnot: Thank you.
I mean after all, nobody really gets hurt, right?
We work real kidnappings, and we work virtual kidnappings.
There’s no violent threat.
All of those violent threats don’t happen in the other schemes.
So the FBI opened the Operation Hotel Tango.
[00:06:55] Julie: Hotel Tango, what’s that?
[00:06:56] Erik Arbuthnot: Yes, so Operation Hotel Tango, the HT stands for hostage taking.
[00:07:08] Julie: What happened after that?
And they had a victim say, I have $25,000.
And the victim said, Yes.
I have $25,000 I’ll give to you right now.
How do you want to do it?
[00:07:37] Julie: Typically these kidnappers ask their victims to send the money to Mexico, right?
Why didnt they just do that in this case?
[00:08:29] Julie: So that really puts the virtual kidnapper in a bind, right?
[00:08:43] Erik Arbuthnot: They want that $25,000, thats, that this whole purpose.
So they change their MO.
We come to find out that shes working for prisoners in Mexico City.
[00:09:39] Julie: Were you surprised?
[00:09:41] Erik Arbuthnot: It was really an aha moment where the FBI goes, wow.
There’s no kidnapping.
[00:10:21] Julie: Can we back up here just one minute?
Theyre not in a special room.
Theyre sort of like in the hallways.
Help me, Mommy!
[00:11:36] Julie: Got it.
So what can you tell me about Brito Ramirez then?
I assume hes the mastermind to this scam?
[00:11:42] Erik Arbuthnot: Yep.
So people like Brito Ramirez show up and they realize, hey, you speak English.
We don’t have to do that.
Guess what we can do?
[00:13:13] Julie: Hmm.
[00:13:46] Julie: Pretty lucrative.
[00:13:47] Erik Arbuthnot: Yes, for a prisoner.
[00:13:49] Julie: For a prisoner.
[00:13:50] Erik Arbuthnot: Yeah.
[00:13:56] Erik Arbuthnot: Absolutely.
[00:13:57] Julie: Can you tell me more about that?
[00:14:10] Julie: Do you have any idea how many victims are out there?
This is um, an unreported crime, especially if they dont make a payment.
They said, he was away at college.
And they actually went to the neighborhood park and they started going through the dumpsters looking for his body.
[00:15:26] Julie: Oh my gosh.
[00:15:48] Julie: Oh my gosh.
Now, going back to the case of Brito Ramirez and Yannette Acosta, what happened to them?
So shes currently serving her uh federal sentence for this.
[00:16:05] Julie: And then Brito Ramirez was indicted.
So what sort of difference do you think this will ever make?
[00:16:34] Julie: And thats why were profiling this scam on the podcast.
This has been really eye-opening, thank you so much Erik.
[00:16:39] Erik Arbuthnot: Thank you.
[00:16:43] Julie: My next guest is also very involved in the FBIs kidnapping program.
Im here now with Special Agent Scott Abagnale who is the Unit Chief of the FBIs Crisis Negotiations Unit.
Hes also the son of my cohost, Frank Abagnale.
Scott, welcome, its good to have you on the show.
[00:17:00] Scott Abagnale: Thank you very much, Julie, my pleasure.
How long have you been working for the FBI?
[00:17:21] Julie: You said that you, uh youre very interested in negotiations.
Can I ask why?
What about negotiations is so interesting for you?
[00:17:55] Julie: So tell us about kidnappings for ransom in the US.
How often and why do they happen?
[00:18:43] Julie: Really.
And this is open to just more than Mexico?
Are there other countries as well?
[00:18:48] Scott Abagnale: Certainly.
[00:19:09] Julie: Okay.
Are we seeing an increase or decrease year after year in the number of kidnappings that are happening abroad?
[00:19:38] Julie: So they handle it without including the government, theyll do it privately.
[00:19:42] Scott Abagnale: Correct.
[00:19:43] Julie: Got it.
When are you called in?
[00:19:45] Scott Abagnale: As early as possible.
[00:20:15] Julie: Okay.
Kidnapping industry…
[00:20:23] Scott Abagnale: Kidnapping industrys probably a fair term unfortunately.
[00:20:25] Julie: Okay, okay.
[00:20:54] Julie: Yeah.
[00:21:05] Scott Abagnale: Thats an excellent question.
If you are to leave, you’ll be killed.
Uh if you call anyone from your phone, we’ll know.
But this sort of more sophisticated virtual kidnapping can go for two or three days like a traditional kidnapping.
In addition to that, they will use proof of life in, in a more sophisticated manner.
[00:25:48] Julie: Wow.
Do you see that often?
[00:25:51] Scott Abagnale: Unfortunately yes.
[00:26:01] Julie: Wow.
[00:26:03] Scott Abagnale: So, I think the scam will definitely increase over time.
Virtual or not virtual?
[00:28:07] Julie: So tell me about reporting.
We hear so often that people dont report being scammed.
Are you seeing this in virtual kidnapping scams as well?
[00:28:46] Julie: Got it.
Well, Scott, thanks so much for being on this show today.
It’s such a pleasure to have you.
[00:28:51] Scott Abagnale: Thank you very much, Julie, my pleasure.
[00:28:53] Julie: With this said, I want to bring back my cohost, Frank Abagnale.
Frank, how do you think Scott did?
This is his first time on a podcast.
[00:28:59] Frank Abagnale: I thought he did a fantastic job, but I knew he would.
[00:29:02] Julie: Okay.
[00:29:04] Frank Abagnale: I didnt know he had such a great radio voice though.
[00:29:06] Julie: I know, right.
These really great dynamic microphones, it really makes a difference.
Well, it really is a pleasure to have you both here in the studio with us today.
It’s certainly a very unique and special episode as its the first time youve ever worked together.
Have you guys ever wanted to work together?
[00:29:37] Frank Abagnale: Absolutely.
[00:29:38] Julie: Great.
How many kids are in the Abagnale family?
[00:29:42] Frank Abagnale: Three boys.
[00:29:43] Julie: Three boys.
And where do you fall in line?
[00:29:45] Frank Abagnale: Hes the oldest.
[00:29:46] Scott Abagnale: The oldest.
[00:29:46] Julie: You’re the oldest, okay.
[00:30:07] Julie: Ah.
[00:30:19] Julie: Yeah.
Um, and then once you found out, did you share with your younger brothers?
[00:30:23] Scott Abagnale: No, I didnt.
And I’m not sure, they probably had their own stories about how they heard about it.
No, I don’t recall sharing it with them in any way.
[00:30:29] Julie: So you came home from school.
Did you talk to your dad about it?
And what did he say?
[00:30:32] Scott Abagnale: Oh yeah.
No, oh, he sat me down and explained where it was coming from.
He was very matter of fact.
[00:30:36] Julie: Yeah.
Is that, is that right?
Can you tell, can you share that sto–, story with us?
[00:31:09] Julie: And what did you like most about it?
It just had all the things that I guess appealed to my nature in one place.
[00:31:27] Julie: Frank, is this how you remember it?
So I said, “Well, you know, son, you have to go to college.”
And so he went to college and I thought during college he would change his mind.
It may help you get in."
I explained to him it was very difficult.
Back then the FBI was taking one in every 10,000 applicants.
That was extremely difficult.
It’s always based on your own merits and who you are.
I taught Scott’s class when he went through the Academy.
[00:34:26] Julie: Yeah, I can tell you’re very, very proud.
How does it make you feel to hear your dad talk about you like this?
[00:34:30] Scott Abagnale: It’s obviously really makes you feel good.
It also uh never stops being embarrassing.
[00:34:40] Julie: Yeah, and your mother’s very proud of you as well.
[00:34:42] Scott Abagnale: Absolutely, yeah.
I mean I think it’s well understood I have the best mom in the world.
[00:34:52] Scott Abagnale: No.
[00:35:07] Julie: Okay, so we know what Scott does.
What does, what do the other, the other boys do?
They’ve had it for about 10 years and they do very well with it.
[00:35:38] Julie: Nice.
Nice, very successful.
[00:35:40] Frank Abagnale: Yeah.
[00:35:41] Julie: Successful boys.
Um, anybody else in the family going to be FBI agents?
[00:35:49] Scott Abagnale: Yeah, you never know.
[00:35:58] Julie: Sure.
[00:36:07] Julie: Uh-huh.
Frank you taught Scotts class at the FBI.
[00:36:12] Frank Abagnale: Academy.
[00:36:13] Julie: Academy.
Tell me what that was like to have Scott in the classroom?
And I said, “Well do you?”
And he said, “No, I told them that wasn’t a problem.”
And I think Scott goes through the same thing uh that I go through all the time.
He said, “Yeah, they ask me all these questions.”
“So what do you usually say?”
But if it’s a pretty girl, I tell them you’re my dad."
[00:38:03] Julie: Ah… smooth, smooth.
So what kind of grade did you give Scott in class?
[00:38:16] Julie: Good.
And I said, “Okay, great.”
And so the other agent said, ‘Well you know who his dad is, right?'"
She said, “No.”
And then she explained.
He could go on to law and practice and be very successful at it.
And I get great reports.
[00:39:47] Julie: But what is that like, always getting stopped to have a name?
It certainly doesn’t.
[00:40:04] Julie: Yeah.
[00:40:04] Frank Abagnale: It’s amazing that people recognize me more by name than picture.
[00:40:27] Julie: Yeah.Catch Me If you could.
When the film, the premiere, were you, did you get to go to Hollywood?
[00:40:40] Scott Abagnale: Yeah, I did.
I was in uh law school at the time when it was being made, and then came out.
Um, but um, but it was entertaining.
[00:41:15] Scott Abagnale: He did.
[00:41:15] Julie: Aw, nice.
Do you remember what it said?
He, he basically commented like, “What?
Scott’s in the FBI now.”
You know and it was very congratulatory.
It was very kind.
[00:41:34] Julie: That’s so great, that’s so great.
[00:41:50] Julie: Do you want to do it?
[00:41:51] Frank Abagnale: Yeah, Scott knows what (inaudible).
[00:41:53] Scott Abagnale: I don’t know if there are five surprising ones.
Yeah, I was trying to think about this actually a little bit last night.
I’m not sure if I would be able to come up with five.
[00:42:03] Scott Abagnale: I would say I can probably come up with three.
[00:42:06] Julie: Okay, do we need to phone in your mom?
[00:42:09] Scott Abagnale: … she won’t want to contribute.
He, he’s very quiet, very engaging, but very quiet.
ProbablyLove Actually, still, your favorite?
[00:42:43] Frank Abagnale: Yeah.
[00:43:08] Julie: Yeah.
[00:43:08] Frank Abagnale: Absolutely.
[00:43:09] Julie: Thats great.
So really your favorite film isLove Actually.
[00:43:18] Julie: Yeah, good, okay.
Well, you guys, this is all so great.
Thank you for being here at AARP Studios doing your first ever interview together on The Perfect Scam Podcast.
This has been a lot of fun.
Anything else you guys want to add?
[00:43:31] Scott Abagnale: Just thank you very much.
[00:43:32] Frank Abagnale: Thanks for having us.
[00:43:33] Julie: Of course, thank you.
Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
For AARP - The Perfect Scam, I’m Julie Getz.
For instance, if you are looking for a job you are more vulnerable to a work-at-home scam.
