The optimism is short-lived, however, as Alfred’s story will soon take an even more tragic turn.
Now I almost felt like he was living in a soap opera, like a fantasy world.
(MUSIC SEGUE)
[00:00:20] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam.
I’m your host, Bob Sullivan.
Alfred at one point had a million dollars in retirement savings.
But the request wasn’t a complete surprise.
Actually my dad was really embarrassed about it, and didn’t want Christie to know too much.
He didn’t want to, you know, even my brother and my brother’s wife.
You know he, he seemed to, you know, want to work with me now.
Like I want, you know full access to, to everything.
You know if it’s really to pay taxes, which it turns out it wasn’t.
[00:02:28] Bob: Alfred agrees to the conditions.
Now Chris has access to every Google Chat, every social media account, every financial transaction, everything.
Christie is gentle with Alfred too.
So I just tried to reassure him and say, hey, you know it’s okay.
I called him Pops.
And you know, “It’s okay, Pops.
So I, I was hopeful.
[00:03:45] Bob: It felt like rock bottom?
[00:03:48] Christie Mancinelli: I thought it was, I really thought it was.
[00:03:56] Chris Mancinelli: Yeah.
It was definitely not my dad, you know.
So it felt like rock bottom.
So it, like he’s got a safety net.
The therapist has a few theories about what’s behind Alfred’s behavior.
So, you know, kind of lacking purpose.
She kind of connected with that as well.
That he’s got a lot of pain that he never dealt with.
And so the therapist, I think, recognized this as well.
Or the scammer herself would be in the hospital with some injuries – I need care.
So a lot of it was hospital-related bills that my dad was being asked to pay.
And I think, I guess I think that that was compelling for him.
And so the therapist talked about that, right?
Um…
[00:07:16] Bob: He kept having a chance to help rescue somebody who is sick.
[00:07:19] Chris Mancinelli: Yeah, basically, yeah.
[00:07:32] Chris Mancinelli: So then I would see new people come in.
And then he’d be like, “Who are you?”
And then they’d now just have a conversation and now they’re telling each other about their lives.
[00:08:20] Chris Mancinelli: I, I felt it, yeah, I could see it.
You know I say he used to have a lot, but now he has nothing.
So now I almost felt like he was living in a soap opera, like a fantasy world.
So like, and he’s, you know, giving money wherever he could to help these people.
[00:09:17] Chris Mancinelli: He was still giving money to the scammers.
I was watching him.
He’d give, it was now only like a few hundred or 50.
It was small enough that I said, look, I’ll just leave it.
Maybe this is his wean off period.
I’m not going to hassle him about it, and he doesn’t have much to give anyway.
So maybe things are going to just like peter out.
And we, and we did feel like he was intentionally trying to change.
They had never talked to each other for a long time, but he passed away.
So I was in Japan on business at the time.
[00:11:08] Chris Mancinelli: So now it was down to about $100,000.
So I went to the bank, um, after getting home from, from Japan.
But it turns out, yeah, I had moved it.
I said I would not, and um, that was on December 7th of 2021.
[00:13:05] Bob: And from there Dad just cuts off his son.
They stop communicating entirely.
And then I had to, you know, um, get my own lawyer.
I’d never been sued before.
I had no idea.
You know I was; I was actually scared.
Like I don’t know what’s going to happen next, you know.
It’ll be on my permanent record.
Am I going to have to go to jail?
Am I going to have to pay penalties?
And how the heck did I get myself here?
[00:13:58] Bob: Does the suit accuse you of what, the fraud of stealing the money?
[00:14:02] Chris Mancinelli: It does.
What does it say, what did it say exactly?
But that, that didn’t happen?
[00:14:22] Chris Mancinelli: My dad’s lawyer was, I don’t know, playing hardball?
I don’t know.
[00:14:27] Bob: Oh my God.
[00:14:27] Chris Mancinelli: And just says, “You know that’s fine.
But you know Alfred wants the money back.”
It was very an–, anxiety-inducing, the whole thing.
[00:15:01] Bob: So Chris makes the only rational choice he can.
The criminals have won.
I’ll give the money back.
He can give it away if he wants.”
At this point I, I don’t know what, what’s left for me to do.
So just like settle it.
But I was even almost willing to pay it just to have it all be done.
I gave the money back and then that the lawsuit was dropped.
Within just a few weeks Alfred sends all that money to various online criminals.
And then and even deeper tragedy strikes.
So they went to the emergency room.
He got surgery, but he didn’t survive.
[00:16:25] Bob: It’s a tragic task going through Alfred’s things after his death.
So he had um, just continued to give it away until he was back down to zero.
He did pay his taxes though.
[00:17:03] Chris Mancinelli: No, no I didn’t, we didn’t.
[00:17:05] Bob: Sorry.
[00:17:06] Chris Mancinelli: I hope it’s understandable.
I was in no mood to speak with him after that.
Um, I, I had no idea how we would speak to each other again after that.
Of course I didn’t expect him to die shortly after.
So really, I guess that was more of a rock bottom.
He was probably going to sell his house to get money to continue giving away money.
So I… yeah.
[00:18:25] Chris Mancinelli: Right, yeah.
[00:18:26] Bob: I’m so sorry.
Give us the address and the room number.
But it’s such a kind way to take a stab at probe where he’s at.
I, I just so admire what you were trying to do there.
[00:18:42] Chris Mancinelli: Oh thanks, Bob.
It really is true, sometimes you could do all the right things and still the wrong things happen.
[00:19:08] Bob: What do you hope that people can learn from hearing this story?
I say like reflecting maybe we should have taken stronger steps sooner.
Um, but um…
[00:20:09] Bob: Sometimes you just can’t do anything.
[00:20:12] Chris Mancinelli: Right, that’s hard I think too.
That’s hard to, to accept as well when you love someone and you want to help.
Um, yeah, that’s hard to accept.
I mean I did help in the background.
I, I didn’t get directly involved in having a dialog with Chris’s dad.
I would do all of that kind of stuff.
So I just tried to support as much as possible.
[00:21:18] Bob: Alfred’s story has such a sad ending.
Marti DeLiema, she’s been on The Perfect Scam before.
And that’s a loss.
That’s, that’s a tremendous loss.
Here’s a check for your, your, the remaining $100,000.
But in the end, they fire the client.
You know we can’t take you on.
You’re a risk to us.
Um, and you know Chris didn’t do that.
He fought the whole, he fought gently the whole way through.
Um, and that’s really hard and takes such a serious emotional toll on a person.
[00:24:17] Marti DeLiema: Yeah.
So that would be maybe the first thing that, that people need is emotional support.
[00:25:59] Marti DeLiema: I feel like there’s a couple things to comment on here.
And oftentimes, as we age some of those life events become more common.
You know it isn’t unusual for an older adult to lose their spouse and become widowed.
Does that come up in your research as well?
[00:27:22] Marti DeLiema: It does, and I often talk about unmet needs.
So absolutely you know, boredom is one of those.
Lack, a lack of purpose is another.
Just talk to them on the phone.
Expressing empathy is really important and just saying, you know, “I’m here.
We’ll talk about it.”
You know 4, 5, 6, 7 phone calls a day, right?
So you have to sort of venture to keep up with that in some way, right?
It’s really, really difficult.
So I think that gives scammers an edge.
[00:29:21] Bob: They’ve got all the time in the world, yeah.
[00:29:24] Marti DeLiema: Yeah, it’s their business model, right?
That’s, that’s their job.
You have many jobs, but it’s their one job.
Should we send flowers?
Can we talk more about that?
Do we, do you know, you know what do you think is going on here?
And it really helps protect the person’s feelings from feeling like they’re being attacked or questioned.
You’re really working together.
Do we need better tools to deal with situations like this?
So another thing that would be helpful is other allies.
If the funds are held, that’s one thing.
You know he was an account holder named on the account.
He had the ability to withdraw those funds.
Most families are not.
You know we live in a system that prioritizes autonomy, independence, and right to self-determination.
That’s, that’s what we’ve chosen as a society.
And I think that that’s the right choice.
Will people slip through the cracks?
And you know we haven’t figured it out.
So and it seems, again, it seems like this is something that Chris and his family did.
Those are important actions that families can take now to avoid needing to turn to guardianship in the future.
[00:35:24] Bob: I can’t help, I’m a human being.
I mean the real solution is to stop the criminals, right?
Like if they can’t reach their target, then they can’t exploit their target.
And they, they’re so sophisticated.
She… she/he/they, the criminal internet groomed Chris' father.
They, and they used love-bombing, they used gas lighting.
That was what’s happening with, in these text messages.
And it, so I think though the real solution is blocking the message.
[00:36:41] Bob: Taking away gadgets, taking away internet, that kind of thing?
[00:36:44] Marti DeLiema: And people have tried that before.
And they reluctantly did.
And great, but guess what they started to do?
He used his wife’s smartphone.
[00:37:08] Bob: Oh God.
We recently did a study with the United States Postal Inspection Service.
And that was a large trial.
We went with kind of an empowering message.
[00:39:56] Bob: These are like vaccines, that’s interesting.
[00:39:58] Marti DeLiema: Very much like a vaccine.
So we did a couple things in this intervention study with our messaging.
We used a consistent logo.
So we gave them really precise information about where to report and when to report.
We also tried to give them a sense of purpose.
We also spoke to them as if they’re the experts in scams.
Tell us what you’re seeing.
Tell us what you have noticed about scams.
Because some people likened it to like gambling at a casino.
And we’re like, you know, this isn’t like losing your money on a house.
This is funding criminal activity.
[00:42:09] Bob: Do all you’re free to.
Use empathy and kindness.
Don’t blame victims.
Don’t chase them into a corner.
Do the right things anyway but protect yourself too.
For The Perfect Scam, I’m Bob Sullivan.
Call the AARP Fraud Watch connection Helpline at 877-908-3360.
Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next.
That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org.
Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
For AARP’s The Perfect Scam, I’m Bob Sullivan.
