(MUSIC SEGUE)
[00:00:01] Bob: This week on The Perfect Scam.
[00:00:02] I got a phone call around midnight.
He said I had nothing to lose, don’t you dare call the cops.
If you call the cops, I’ll kill her.
[00:00:14] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam.
I’m your host, Bob Sullivan.
And I thought, well that’s pretty odd.
My mom wouldn’t call me after midnight unless something was up.
And that’s strange because my mom lives alone.
She and my dad divorced when I was fairly young.
It took me a minute to take a stab at understand what was going on.
Whenever I answered the phone, nobody said anything right away.
It took a minute.
It sounded like somebody was talking but not to me and not into the phone.
I had to say hello a few times before he spoke.
Q: And what was the first thing he said?
[00:02:00] Bob: Oh my God.
[00:02:02] Bob: I’m going to kill your mom.
The words ring out in Jeremy’s still groggy head.
A lot of things go through your mind at a time like this.
A million thoughts about family, about growing up in Missouri, about what to do.
She’s only been in Rolla about five years.
She moved there after Jeremy and his older brother left home.
They grew up just outside St. Louis.
[00:02:56] Bob: Oh yeah, sure.
[00:02:59] Bob: Kathy Vincent was a really involved mom.
[00:03:02] Jeremy Vincent: I was a pretty active kid, so I was always outdoors.
And she was always that parent.
She was also, always had a very active role, you know, during my childhood.
[00:03:45] Bob: She sounds like the class mom.
I played hockey, you know, as a youth, uh those kinds of things.
She was always very involved in that.
[00:04:00] Bob: She’s a hockey mom.
That explains a lot, yeah.
[00:04:23] Bob: How nice.
Hocky mom to me means a lot of 5 am mornings at the rink.
[00:04:38] Bob: Work brought Jeremy to Florida.
Jeremy has a pretty challenging job.
So a lot of folks that we get aren’t entirely stable.
[00:05:10] Bob: Still he finds time to talk with his mom often.
[00:05:12] Jeremy Vincent: We’re pretty close.
I mean we’re probably as close as you know most of my friends are with their parents.
[00:05:45] Jeremy Vincent: He said, “I have nothing to lose.
Don’t you dare call the cops.”
But yeah, within, this was all within about 30 seconds of picking up the phone.
Like, “If you call the cops, I’ll kill her.”
At that point I’m kind of thinking like, well what’s the best course of action here?
So it was pretty alarming.
[00:06:07] Bob: Alarming seems like an understatement to me.
[00:06:33] Bob: So what was your response?
They had no idea.
I say “they” because there ended up being two, two men.
Now the second guy that I spoke with was more reasonable, and he was much nicer.
They didn’t seem to have much of a game plan.
Did you ever settle on, on an amount?
[00:08:44] Jeremy Vincent: No.
I’m a psychologist by trade, so that’s just kind of who I am.
I’m going to ask a, a lot of questions.
Strange enough, but he decides to take a big risk.
Why aren’t dogs barking?
So, that was when I hung up, and I called the police.
(phone ring)
[00:10:10] Bob: So he dials Missouri and gets the police there.
He has to explain the situation all over again.
It might have been before then.
How did that go?
[00:10:45] Bob: And did they take it very seriously?
[00:10:49] Jeremy Vincent: It sounds like they did, yeah.
It sounds like they were there quick.
[00:11:00] Jeremy Vincent: That was the worst part times ten.
So I have no idea where, what, what the next phone call’s going to be.
I had no idea what was happening.
[00:11:29] Bob: I can’t imagine what those moments must have been like.
[00:11:45] Jeremy Vincent: Yeah, I’m panic stricken.
As soon as I got off the phone with them, that was scary.
You, it sounds like you went into work mode very quickly on the phone.
I mean I guess it’s smart from their perspective.
I remember I; I texted a couple of my aunts about the phone call during it.
[00:12:47] Bob: That’s when the phone rings a second time.
[00:12:49] Jeremy Vincent: I got another call from Mom’s Cell.
[00:13:07] Kathy Vincent: Right, exactly.
I was sound asleep, yeah.
[00:13:10] Bob: And, and what’s the first thing that you noticed?
What did you think was going on?
[00:13:52] Kathy Vincent: I didn’t know.
First, I thought somebody was trying to break in the house.
[00:14:03] Bob: And uh what was it, two police officers, four police offers?
[00:14:06] Kathy Vincent: Two police officers.
Yeah, I opened the door, I said, “Can I help you?”
[00:14:12] Bob: She answers the door and lets in the cops.
And I said, “Yeah.”
And then everything started running through my mind that someone was wrong with him.
And then they said uh, that they got a call from him.
[00:14:49] Kathy Vincent: Right, exactly, and I said, “What?”
And I’m like, oh my gosh, I said, “No, nobody’s here.”
I said, “I just woke up and, you know, everything’s fine.”
Like where is your, where is your heart rate at at this point?
[00:15:26] Kathy Vincent: Oh, it was pretty fast.
[00:15:52] Kathy Vincent: So then I came inside, and I immediately called him.
And he wouldn’t say anything.
And I said, “Jeremy.”
I said, “Everything’s fine.
The police were just here.”
I just, I couldn’t believe it.
He said, “I thought they were actually going to kill you.”
[00:17:07] Bob: Oh my God.
I bet it; it took him a while probably to calm down.
[00:17:28] Kathy Vincent: Right.
Exactly, he had no way of knowing if someone was in my house or not.
And he did have to make that, you know, horrible decision.
[00:17:42] Bob: What happened to Jeremy and his mom is called virtual kidnapping.
The FBI has been tracking this kind of crime for at least two decades.
Through the years, there have been several official warnings about it.
The Bureau says many victims do pay the callers, and the average loss is thousands of dollars.
In the past, the FBI has said that almost all these virtual kidnappings originated from prisons in Mexico.
Now, armed with personal information often gleaned from social media, they can make the stories more personal.
That’s why Jeremy’s phone displayed Mom’s cell that night when the kidnapping call came in.
The dogs weren’t barking.
That was a big clue.
[00:19:16] Jeremy Vincent: Yeah, they… (chuckles) they kind of were.
I mean I wish that I would have thought of them sooner.
[00:19:21] Bob: I’m sure they greeted the police officers as well they should have.
[00:19:24] Jeremy Vincent: Yeah.
[00:19:26] Bob: What are their names, do you know?
[00:19:31] Bob: And, and what kind of dogs are they?
[00:19:32] Jeremy Vincent: Oh gosh, I knew you’d ask that.
I don’t know exactly, but they’re, they’re large and they’re pretty ferocious.
I mean…
[00:19:39] Bob: That’s good to know.
[00:19:46] Bob: Oh, but they protect your mom.
I think you’d turn around.
[00:19:57] Bob: Yeah, no, it’s interesting.
I might have quizzed them.
[00:20:01] Bob: Still, Jeremy was shocked at how real the phone call seemed.
And I still had, like I hadn’t deleted, you know, the calls or anything.
And so I gave her my phone to look at, and she said the same thing.
She was like, “That looks identical.
Even whenever you look at call details, there’s nothing different.
It looks like a; it looks exactly like it looks whenever my mom calls me.
[00:21:03] Jeremy Vincent: Certainly couldn’t that night.
[00:21:05] Bob: Yeah.
Call this number,” and, or whatever.
I’ve had those.
I’ve had that, too.
I thought, I didn’t know that these, these scams went that far.
[00:21:46] Bob: Jeremy did ask police to investigate, but they didn’t get very far.
So I…
[00:22:03] Bob: But they gave you a phone number.
I’m actually impressed they went that far without a court order.
[00:22:07] Jeremy Vincent: It sounds like it was like a burner phone anyway.
It didn’t connect with anything.
[00:22:34] Jeremy Vincent: Have no idea.
There’s got to be someone that can explain that better than I can.
[00:22:39] Bob: It’s a disturbing part of the story.
[00:22:41] Jeremy Vincent: It is.
And that same night is when this call happens.
That just seems coincidental.
[00:23:14] Bob: Or, or more than coincidental perhaps.
[00:23:16] Jeremy Vincent: Yeah, but I have no idea how that happened.
I wish I could speak to that.
Or it could have been information gleaned from social media or other sources.
Whatever the reason, call number spoofing is a dangerous trick criminals can play on people.
No, you’ve got the option to’t trust what caller ID is telling you.
[00:24:00] Bob: Yeah, sure.
I mean it felt like, it almost felt like I was, you know, running sprints.
[00:24:08] Bob: Wow.
[00:24:08] Jeremy Vincent: So I mean that could, that could be fatal, you know.
Often, continued engagement with a scammer gives them time to further convince you that their story is true.
The quicker you hang up, the less time the criminal has to persuade you something is really wrong.
Does it really sound like it’s your family’s house, for example, right?
[00:25:06] Jeremy Vincent: Right.
[00:25:06] Bob: What, what other advice?
[00:25:07] Jeremy Vincent: That’s a really good piece of advice, is listen for things.
Yeah, you should have, the dogs, of course.
I, I can see most people not thinking about that for an hour.
So it seems to me you did phenomenally well.
[00:26:10] Jeremy Vincent: Yeah.
(laugh)
[00:26:15] Bob: Kathy has advice too.
I was scared that night.
I’m sure he was just 10 times more scared than I was.
[00:26:53] Bob: And the FBI has plenty of advice for people.
This is taken right from the FBI website.
“If you do engage the caller, don’t call out your loved one’s name.
give a shot to slow the situation down.
Request to speak to your family member directly.
Ask how do I know my loved one is okay?
Ask questions only the alleged kidnap victim would know, such as the name of a pet.
Avoid sharing information about yourself or your family.
Listen carefully to the voice of the alleged victim if they speak.
Don’t agree to pay a ransom by wire or in person.
Delivering money in person can be dangerous.”
[00:27:56] Bob: There is one good thing that came out of this terrifying experience.
Kathy Vincent says she knows just how deep Jeremy’s love is for her.
[00:28:45] Bob: I’m glad to hear that.
I’m not surprised though.
[00:28:47] Kathy Vincent: Yeah.
Call the AARP Fraud Watch web link Helpline at 877-908-3360.
Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next.
Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
For AARP’s The Perfect Scam, I’m Bob Sullivan.
After an agonizing back-and-forth exchange, Jeremy panics and hangs up, calling 911 despite the callers warnings.
It is avirtual kidnapping scam.
