(MUSIC SEGUE)
[00:00:04] Into the box we go.
Bank of America with a summary page from the bank and my notes on it.
There they are, into the box.
And I will secure it with tape.
(taping up box)
[00:00:52] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam.
I’m your host, Bob Sullivan.
Linda has been a teacher for decades.
She’s a mom and she’s a musician.
You could say her musical sound is ethereal, almost spiritual, certainly comforting.
And that’s what Linda is good at, comforting people.
She has spent years playing her harp at hospice facilities helping soothe the dying in their final moments.
It’s a beautiful vocation, and we’ll get to that.
Here is Linda’s incredible story.
[00:02:03] Linda Khandro: I stumbled into harps quite by accident; it was not deliberate.
And it’s just the way the instrument resonates in space in the room.
And that makes it very amenable to people who are in the process of leaving life.
They can follow that sound if you like.
[00:03:17] Bob: Yeah, the harp is such a special sound.
[00:03:19] Linda Khandro: It it really is, that’s the thing.
It is actually, I’m going to jump out here and uh, put myself on the line.
Um, there’s really no other instrument like it.
[00:03:43] Linda Khandro: Yeah.
[00:03:44] Bob: … to help them pass with music.
I mean what is that, how do you describe that experience to people?
And I had this rather bizarre experience.
And you’ve got to, I mean I know you understand, I’m a scientist, right.
I was just playing.
I said, “Oh I do.
I do need to be here.
Not for me, but for Mabel and the others around.”
And so I played for my half an hour and then I went home.
And that happened again.
So I can’t look at those experiences and just dismiss them.
And I’d turn around and there were two or three people listening.
And they all had the same thing to say which is, this is so relaxing.
Now they might say this is so healing, but you see, I can’t go there.
But this is so relaxing and so tender, and we’re so grateful to have this.
[00:07:08] Bob: You probably heard Linda mention she’s a scientist.
At her day job she’s a teacher.
[00:07:32] Bob: That’s a lot of science.
[00:07:33] Linda Khandro: Yeah.
[00:08:24] Bob: I remember this.
So straight out of nowhere.
[00:08:50] Bob: Not quite out of nowhere.
And then they said, “Okay, it’s all fixed.
Now you owe us…” blah, blah, blah, a certain amount of money.
[00:09:37] Bob: A federal official from the Federal Trade Commission she said.
[00:10:14] Bob: Linda is stunned, scared, feeling helpless.
The federal government needs to secure her funds?
Linda has no idea what that even means.
[00:10:27] Linda Khandro: Oh, Bob, I can’t tell you how that felt.
It was, it was terrifying because on the one hand, of course I’m not under arrest.
I haven’t done anything wrong, but there was more to the threat.
The federal government already has you under surveillance.
Well, in fact, it’s a hummingbird feeder.
[00:11:23] Bob: That’s spooky.
Were those, those details were accurate?
That means withdrawing the $20,000 she has in her credit union account right away.
What did I do?”
So at that point I thought, okay, well they are watching me.
[00:12:57] Linda Khandro: It’s terrifying.
[00:12:59] Bob: Are people watching you?
[00:13:00] Linda Khandro: It’s terrifying.
People were walking in and walking out, walking behind me.
Never, and no, and absolutely no interest.
So this was very foreign.
It seemed to take forever.
People were walking past behind me, I just was shaking.
The government needs to secure the money that’s in her retirement account as well.
And I had several accounts with TIAA.
This is a lot; this is a big withdrawal."
That was going to be about a quarter of my, a fifth of my entire savings there.
So that’s what I did.
[00:15:22] Bob: Somebody drove up to your house?
That’s also sounds really unnerving.
[00:15:26] Linda Khandro: Yes, absolutely was.
[00:15:29] Bob: God.
[00:15:30] Linda Khandro: I, I, that’s the thing.
Everything about this was unnerving, unsettling, terrifying.
I mean pick any adjective you want or adverb.
Yeah, it was, the whole thing was horrifying.
[00:15:43] Bob: During July, she repeats the process several times.
The instructions become more and more elaborate.
Here’s audio from that video.
[00:15:59] (video audio) Into the box we go.
Bank of America with a summary page from the bank and my notes on it.
Bank of America 10,000, plus 9,439, plus 5,360.
And Chase, and the receipt is for $25,520 and I kept the 11 cents.
There they are into the box, and I will secure it with tape.
“Are you being pressured to do this?”
[00:16:57] Linda Khandro: I said, no.
Be confident, be happy.
You know you’re doing; you’re doing just great."
[00:17:19] Bob: Be confident, be happy, you’re doing great.
[00:17:49] Linda Khandro: And they said, “Well you have to be retired.”
[00:17:57] Bob: Then you have to retire, wow.
Not just for me financially, but my students were, were doing well.
And the colleges kept hiring me back every quarter.
And so I had a, I had a good career going.
And suddenly I was going to drop it, just like that.
And that was official as of August 31st.
Almost 56 went to the IRS and so 223 went into my new Chase account.
[00:19:03] Bob: And Linda is told she has to send the money using a new method.
Oh man, are you kidding?
[00:19:40] Bob: She has to order gold bars and then send them along to the FTC.
So I did that.
I could hardly kick off the box.
I did the same thing, dropped the package in.
And then that’s what she’s told.
[00:20:41] Linda Khandro: And by that time it was uh the middle of September or so.
The money was all gone, and I had no job.
Somebody’s going to come by your house with documents for you next week, October 15th.
On October 17th, somebody will come by with cashier’s checks for your money."
That was October 10th.
And then I erupted again, and I said, “No, you might’t do that.
I’ve got plans.
I’m trying to make a trip to visit my daughters over Christmas.
I need that money now,” like not in an extra week, but now.
And she texted back, “Well I’ll see what I can do.”
[00:21:50] Linda Khandro: “hey control your emotion.”
Now she’s got over $400,000 of mine.
I have been on the hook for 412 months.
I’ve been terrorized by this for 412 months.
And she’s telling me to control my emotion.
That’s not about to happen.
The other side says, “How to deal with it if you think it’s a scam.”
And in that instant, I mean the moment was digital, is that the word?
It was like the walls of my house blew down.
And I understood exactly what had happened, when, where, how, who.
Everything was completely exposed.
[00:23:05] Bob: Linda realizes at that moment the caller is a liar.
All her money has been stolen.
Even her retirement savings.
She’s even quit her job, ended her career for no reason.
I’ve never felt that angry in my life ever.
It was, it was just rage.
In my mind that makes these scammers not just thieves but murderers.
In my mind, that makes these scammers murderers.
[00:25:04] Linda Khandro: Right.
You were right, and I was lying to you the whole time."
And to the other bank, “You were right.
I was lying to you the whole…” and to the other bank.
[00:25:54] Linda Khandro: Yes.
[00:25:55] Bob: What was that like?
[00:25:56] Linda Khandro: Oh, it was very hard.
[00:26:37] Linda Khandro: Yeah, yeah.
And she develops a credo that still guides her now.
[00:26:51] Linda Khandro: I had to own everything.
Yes, I did this, I didn’t know what I was doing.
And I really and truly did not know that this even existed in the world.
That’s the bald truth of that.
[00:27:24] Bob: You don’t know what you don’t know.
[00:27:33] Linda Khandro: They were pretty frightened.
They did get the printed version right away, like that first night.
They couldn’t stop crying either.
But it was very, very difficult.
“We will never let you be destitute, Mom.”
I mean how can you hear that from your children?
[00:28:54] Bob: So how is Linda now?
Well she is facing a long road to recovery.
The criminals did steal pretty much everything she has financially and in other ways too.
[00:29:10] Linda Khandro: I have no savings anymore, essentially.
And there’s no such thing as pride in my life.
It comes and goes.
This whole experience and these, this woman that I was talking to basically gutted everything.
She stripped it all away.
And that’s what frightens me the most in terms of other people who might not withstand that.
[00:30:23] Linda Khandro: And I really do have an extraordinary, wonderful support system here.
I have figured out how to do it in 10 minutes.
This just feels like I have to still live in this world.
I’m 76, right?
I’m planning to go for another 30 years, right, wish me luck, right?
It’s possible that some of the crime reports she’s filled out will make a difference.
That money set aside for IRS tax payments, she might be able to get that back.
A member of Congress has offered to work with the IRS on her behalf.
So there is movement on that score.
It’s like the ice flow is starting to break up.
[00:32:21] Bob: The ice flow is starting to break up.
The kids' boundless energy brings her peace in a way that is oddly familiar.
And he’s got this big grin all over his face.
So I’m kind of looking around thinking what?
Is this for me?
It’s, you know, doesn’t pay as well, but I’m loving the kids.
And that goes a long way.
So all of these things are working, they’re small bits and pieces, but they’re working.
[00:33:53] Bob: It is.
Now that may sound like, how does that English even work?
But it’s that same stupid phrase of what you don’t know what you don’t know.
Don’t have a go at tell me anymore lies, Linda.
This is what happened to you."
I, so yeah, uh anesthetized.
The time for it to have been effective for me would have been after that first withdrawal deposit.
That would have been the ideal time.
Like right at the very beginning.
I could see the connections there.
I couldn’t get relationships right when I was young, just really had trouble with relationships.
My need for companionship as well as recognition was huge when I was young.
And I had none of those.
So I’ve been vulnerable probably all my life to being manipulated.
That’s the sum of that.
And I think I’m not alone in that.
now these people did, had no idea of my childhood.
They had no idea at all.
It was only with my daughter’s interview that I began to see that deeper connection.
[00:37:09] Bob: I mean everyone does, right?
[00:37:11] Linda Khandro: Oh, well I think so.
[00:37:12] Bob: Nobody had a perfect childhood.
[00:37:13] Linda Khandro: (chuckles) That’s right.
It certainly was true in my family.
We were very, very unhappy and, and we had a very logical reason for being unhappy.
My mother was dying of MS from the time I was 10.
I, I didn’t do a good job of it.
[00:38:00] Linda Khandro: Oh man, well I think I know what I would want.
Not where they could have changed it.
This is where could have, would have is not helpful.
My recommendation to them would be simply, don’t do it.
Just don’t do it.
Don’t answer the phone.
you’ve got the option to see the number.
Don’t answer it.
Don’t answer anything you don’t know.
Don’t reply to an email.
Just do not engage.
Don’t, and don’t challenge them.
So just don’t, don’t even do that.
You’re likely just to get into more hot water because they’ll just keep threatening you.
[00:39:38] Bob: And, and don’t engage, hang up.
[00:39:41] Linda Khandro: Don’t engage.
[00:39:42] Bob: Don’t engage and talk to a friend.
One really strong sign of a scam is the demand for silence and isolation.
So this particular scam is clearly making the rounds.
He’s a clinical psychologist and professor who also directs the Wayne State University Institute of Gerontology.
So there’s no one to talk to about this situation.
So you’ve got the government imposter, fear, immediacy, and secrecy.
And that can be an opening for criminals.
Its just something they didnt do.
[00:42:13] Peter Lichtenberg: Yes, exactly.
There, there really are a lot of communication privacy issues around money for this generation particularly.
[00:44:16] Bob: I mean 212 to 3 times, that’s an enormous increase.
[00:44:20] Peter Lichtenberg: Yes, yes it was.
[00:44:22] Bob: What does that kind of isolation or depression look like?
They don’t feel like they have people to turn to.
Less sense of purpose.
They don’t feel like what they’re doing is really important to them or to anybody else.
[00:45:22] Bob: Hmm, sure.
People who used to feel like the world saw them, feel invisible now.
And um, they really have to venture to combat that in a few different ways.
Basically it says we all have to adapt to things that happen to us as we get older.
We, we adapt, we optimize through compensation how we adapt.
Or perhaps they can use uh technology to get onto some virtual groups and things like that.
People have to make themselves visible again, and unfortunately, nobody can do it for them.
[00:47:07] Bob: So what other kinds of advice does Peter have?
If you don’t recognize a phone number, don’t answer it.
They’ll leave a message.
(chuckles) And uh then um, number two is you could’t respond immediately.
[00:48:18] Bob: And don’t be afraid to ask for help.
That’s harder for some people than others.
And you know that’s one of the ways that you give people back control.
Who do you want to be your advocate?
And um, you know what are the characteristics that would make that person trustworthy?
That makes a lot of sense and have that in place beforehand.
[00:49:21] Peter Lichtenberg: Yes, yes.
Anyone can be vulnerable um; you know there’s no way to perfectly protect yourself.
[00:49:45] Peter Lichtenberg: And thank you, Bob.
[00:50:00] Bob: Peter’s organization offers tools that can help.
[00:50:25] Peter Lichtenberg: Yes.
For The Perfect Scam, I’m Bob Sullivan.
Call the AARP Fraud Watch data pipe Helpline at 877-908-3360.
Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next.
That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org.
Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
For AARP’s The Perfect Scam, I’m Bob Sullivan.
