[00:00:02] It’s painful, and it’s heartbreaking.
[00:00:18] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam.
I’m your host, Bob Sullivan.
Often a court-appointed guardian is named to make these critical decisions, and sometimes these relationships go sideways fast.
Welcome back, Frank.
[00:01:22] Frank Abagnale: Thanks, Bob.
What are, what are some of the ideas that people should, uh, should keep in mind?
It’s okay to be a, an involved child.
But these conversations are so emotional, right?
I mean I even just drive the conversation I’ll have with my dad sometime about not driving anymore.
This person said I should be doing this.
I think you should have that checked out before you send any money to those people.
[00:03:05] Bob: And now here’s our story.
The changing of the guard.
Legal authority is granted to someone else.
A court-appointed guardian is named to make these decisions.
About 1.3 million people in the US are currently guardianship: 85% of them over 65.
Guardianship is a process that involves families, lawyers, guardians, healthcare providers, and state courts.
It’s an awesome responsibility with the goal of looking after the person’s best interests.
Just a word about terminology.
It can vary from state to state.
[00:04:39] (news clip) “Now to a news alert out of Marion County.
A former Florida guardian at the center of a statewide scandal faces aggravated abuse and elderly neglect charges.
Investigators say Rebecca Fierle signed a “Do No Resuscitate” order for a 75-year-old.
His name’s Stephen Stryker, against his own wishes.
The two stole 11 million dollars from those under the guardianship’s care.
Susan Harris…”
“Four people are facing more than 250 felony charges for crimes against the elderly.
Well they’re taking plea deals.
And their conviction’s bringing to an end what Chief Investigator Darcy Spears started nearly four years ago.
In February, he pleaded guilty to stealing nearly 7 million dollars from DSLM accounts.
Colleen Heild is one of the reporters who worked on those stories.
[00:06:07] Colleen Heild: Well I am an investigative reporter at the Albuquerque Journal.
We now have two, we used to have three.
And the house was sold, and the daughter-in-law was just appalled.
It turns out that woman ended up penniless.
The hearings are hard to listen to.
I have many sleepless nights over those events and will until I die.
Everything, but once they’re in the system, it’s over.
You’re in the system and it’s possible for you to’t get out.
[00:09:12] Bob: May guardians act honorably and help those who need extra care live with dignity.
Abusive cases stick out and expose gaps in the guardianship process.
The quickest solution isn’t always the best solution says journalist Heild.
Larry and his wife, Marcia live near wine country in Sonoma, California.
[00:11:19] Bob: Larry even credits Kise with saving his relationship with his father.
My father spoke Japanese.
Larry’s dad loved the desert and was happy to get away from California traffic.
She still sold flowers at the local farmer’s market.
Still had her life in Los Cruces, so they put the idea on hold.
Then, right before a planned post-holiday season visit, at the end of 2016, their nightmare began.
At the time, that was legal under New Mexico law.
Larry initially thought he might be able to fix what was clearly a misunderstanding with a few phone calls.
Why didn’t you call me?
Stay out of this.
And if you want to talk to us, you have to get a lawyer.
yo come and get me out of here.”
Or she had some kind of a crises.
That was our expectation when we went there.
We said this is all screwed up.
[00:15:14] Bob: They got to New Mexico as soon as possible.
Went to see Kise, and were troubled by what they saw.
Kise was housed in a unit for people suffering from far more serious cognitive decline.
Several of them were incontinent, and had problems, and that was a clean-up problem.
Uh, it was, it was a nightmare.
He says he was told he didn’t even have the right to talk with Kise.
[00:15:59] Larry Davis: Kise was fried.
I mean she was totally, what happened?
So he had a court fight on his hands.
Our lawyer is charging us to talk to her, and then talk, talk to us.
And so it’s cha-ching, cha-ching, cha-ching.
And everybody’s just fine with it because it’s all being paid for out of court order.
And they get paid to defend their right to take control of her.
[00:17:51] Larry Davis: So, you know, you have to make a choice.
You’re either in or you’re not.
You’re not going to go halfway into something like this because they’re playing for keeps.
[00:18:00] Bob: Then there were phone calls and court hearings and ugly accusations.
And uh, you know, and a whole bunch of other stuff that was just ridiculous.
But more red tape followed.
Kise’s house went up for sale.
Advocate services still controlled her finances, and delays pushed the dispute into the following year.
Heild, the reporter, has seen delays like this before.
Unfortunately, Mr. Larry Davis felt like we had gone behind his back.
We always make every attempt to work with family members in a collaborative effort to meet needs.
This case became contentious not due to our actions."
First, she moved in with Larry and Marcia, then moved into a memory care facility nearby.
Larry remembers the day he was able to tell Kise that she was coming home.
[00:20:04] Larry Davis: Yes, yes, that’s a happy day.
She’s, she’s just delighted.
I think that she was very threatened.
[00:20:43] Bob: The victory came with steep costs, however.
Larry spent more than $50,000 on legal bills and other expenses.
The charges to Kise’s estate during her ordeal are expected to top $140,000.
Still, Heild is happy she got to see a happy ending for once.
[00:21:52] Bob: Things can work out for the best.
Several organizations, including AARP are hard at work trying to see to it that happens more often.
And New Mexico is hardly alone.
Efforts at reform have been underway for some times.
[00:22:43] Bob: That’s Diana Noel, who is AARP’s Senior Legislative Representative.
She’s helped push and even write guardianship reform laws around the country.
And during the pandemic, legislative activity has picked up even more.
There have been some instances of abuse and mismanagement of funds.
There is a lack of court resources, conflicts of interest, or a combination of these.
[00:23:20] Bob: She stresses that it’s a really difficult, often emotional situation.
There are many problems with the current system.
Among the biggest, there aren’t enough people to help.
What works in those instances that can be replicated in other places?
That’s the one thing that states are doing and that’s, it actually has a name.
It’s uh, called Wings.
And essentially, what they do is just that.
We’re moving away from using terms like ward or incompetent or incapacitated person.
If there is an immediately concern for someone’s health or safety, you should call 9-1-1.
A good resource is AARP’s Prepare to Care Guide, available at aarp.org/caregiving.
And here are four things you should do for vulnerable family members before a crisis arrives.
One, make peace with your loved ones.
Judges often appoint professional guardians when families are feuding, so venture to make up before problems escalate.
Whatever the cost, it will likely be cheaper than a professional guardian.
Two, create one durable power of attorney for finances, and another for medical care.
Three, explain to your designee how to do the job.
There’s good sources at consumerfinance.gov.
And four, trust but verify.
Now, let me bring in Fraud Expert, Frank Abagnale again.
[00:28:12] Bob: So I’m a big fan of a happy ending.
That’s probably the best thing you might do to verify that youre protecting your parents.
[00:29:08] Bob: That’s really nice, Frank.
Frank, thanks very much.
[00:29:10] Frank Abagnale: Thanks so much.
Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
For AARP’s The Perfect Scam, I’m Bob Sullivan.
So he is stunned when her neighbor calls to inform him that someone came and took her away.
Determined to help his stepmother, Larryembarks on a long legal battle to bring Kise home.
AARPs Fraud Watch online grid can help you spot and avoid scams.
