I like to think is that we need to have the computer so we canrectify this kind of issues.
Is that possible we can enter the computer,yo?
[00:00:16] Yeah, I’mstanding right in front, I’m sitting right in front of it.
Just to be clear,you guys are from Apple.
[00:00:21] Yes, sir,I’m a certified technician to support Apple, that’s right.
What would it be like to meetthem in person?
What would you say?
Today we’re going to share the story ofanother podcast host who did just that.
But before we get into all that, I’mhere with AARP’s Fraud Watch connection Ambassador.
Frank, this story focuses on acall center in India.
How does that work?
[00:02:01] FrankAbagnale: No, that’s the problem.
Now we do through Interpolhave relationships.
They haveoffices, but they’re all at the embassy, and that FBI agent is attache to theembassy.
Obviously, he works with the local police in that city to have arelationship.
That’s why he or she is the agent there.
But you’ll soonlearn that this phone scammer is making a terrible mistake.
[00:03:36] HOST:First of all, thanks for joining us.
It’s really, it’s great to have you on.
[00:03:39] Alex: Mypleasure.
[00:03:40] HOST: Tellus when you first realized this might be a topic for your podcast?
Were youthinking about doing an episode on call centers or scams?
[00:03:46] Alex: Oh,absolutely not.
I was working on another episode.
We were in the studiorecording.
kindly call blah, blah, blah.
And it was a1-800 number.
[00:05:21] Alex:Yeah, so I say to him, “Who are you?”
Who are you?"
And he says, “We are anonymous, we are Legion,expect us.
We demolishing all your social (inaudible).”
“All of my,me personally?
Tell us what was going through your mind at that moment when hestarted saying all this stuff.
And I found myself less threatened by him and more curious, you know whatare these people doing?
What is their scam?
What, what are they trying to sellme and how does their scam work?
[00:07:27] HOST: Andthen he sort of got into, well I mean not just sort of.
“No, I don’t.”
“Why not?”
“Whywould I?”
“Because…” “You guys have a lot of money.That’s why we (inaudible).”
“Who is you guys?
Who are you talkingabout?”
“Like the people we scam.”
“But how do you know howmuch money I have?”
People, the amount of moneysomeone has isn’t based on what their name is.”
And the callcenter industry in India is massive.
There’s thousands of callcenters in the country.
ThePhilippines has actually also developed a very, very robust call centerindustry.
[00:12:02] Alex:Right.
[00:12:27] HOST: So,let’s go back.
You started making calls every day?
[00:12:42] Alex: Yes.
[00:12:43] Alex:“Is this the Alex Martin that I talked to a while back?
This is AlexGoldman.”
“Yeah, this is the same Alex Martin, do you rememberme?”
“How’s it going, man?
I’ve been trying to get in touch with youfor weeks.”
“So, what exactly you want now?”
“Well, I justwanted to know how you were doing, first of all.
Second of all…““Yeah, I’m very good.”
I’ve seen it across a number of call centers.
Can we remotely connect to your system?
It looks as though you have a virus.
That’sbecause people are remotely accessing your machine and they’re trying to stealthings from you.
That is certainly not the case.
And when these people go onto your system, they say,oh, do you see this?
Do you see how the firewall is turned off?
And oftentimes promise a year of support on the backend.
And they’re, and they’re good at, at making something seemlegitimate.
[00:16:17] Alex:Absolutely.
How many times do you hear stories about financialinstitutions or credit card companies?
They get hacked by hackers, and suddenlyall of your information is out there.
You’re being contacted by the company andbeing told to change your password.
When did you decide to make the trip to India to findKamal or find this call center?
Tell us about that decision and what you werefeeling at that point.
He wasn’tparticularly forthcoming, but he answered some of my questions.
And again, thisis just, I didn’t really know precisely what I was looking for.
And I’m not sure how seriously he meantthat invitation.
I’m not sure if he ever expected me to take him up on it.
So, let’s make some time to hang out.”
And so,we did.
[00:20:44] HOST: Youmeet Kamal’s boss who you weren’t necessarily expecting to meet.
You describeit as sort of like meeting The Godfather.
Did you ever feel like you might bein real danger?
I started to get the sense that the people at the top of theorganization were actually pretty dangerous.
[00:21:00] Alex: It’stough to say.
And there was a very clear pattern of sort of soft intimidationgoing on.
There’s a fair amount of like subterfuge going onconstantly.
And so I had to try and figure out what wasactually the real stuff and what was falsehoods.
What was meant to confuse me,what was meant to intimidate me, and it was really difficult.
[00:24:03] Alex:“You’ve lied to me this whole time.”
“Partly because I lie toeveryone.
Doesn’t make any difference.
You’re not a god.
What do you want?What’s next?
“I don’twant to meet you right now.
You’re not going to tell me thetruth.”
“What exactly do you want from me?
That’s what I’m askingyou.”
“I want you to admit that you guys are scammers and that yousteal money from people.”
“No, that is not going to happen.
No way.That is not going to happen.”
“Then I think that we don’t haveanything else to talk about.”
[00:24:36] HOST:Eventually you find this elusive call center in India.
What was that like finally?
You gotto the outside of the door, but you never got inside, right?
Are they doing any sort of techsupport anywhere?
They think that they’re just working in a techsupport call center.
Ourinformation is out there, scammers are a phone call away.
There’s sort ofsomething real unsettling about getting these calls once, twice, or more everyweek.
Do you think there’s like a realanxiety from any of us that a company phone scams like this?
My first name is Michael.
And these guys are very hard to find.
To be a person who, tobe the person who had, who suddenly knew everything about them.
[00:29:36] Alex:Absolutely.
[00:29:52] HOST: Oh,that’s interesting.
your setup says something, youlisten to it.
it’s possible for you to hang up.
They are against the law.
It’sagainst the law to receive a phone call where the first voice you hear is arobot or a recording.
So you’re able to hang up on those right away as well.
You will never ever,there, no company will ever contact you that way.
So you don’t have to worryabout those.
So, or Microsoft will send you an email.
So, the place to remainmost vigilant, I think, is in your mailbox.
[00:32:20] HOST: Hey,where can people find your podcast and how can they listen?
[00:32:22] Alex: Youcan find it at ReplyAll.soy.
Replyall.s-o-y, or you’re free to find it on any podcastapp, I-tunes, Podcatcher, whatever.
Don’t make a run at take the law in your own, in your own hands.
[00:33:42] FrankAbagnale: Absolutely.
[00:33:46] FrankAbagnale: Thanks, Will.
[00:34:01] HOST: Alright,many thanks to our producers, Julie Getz and Brook Ellis.
Our audio engineer,Julio Gonzales, and of course, my cohost, Frank Abagnale.
Be sure to find us onApple Podcast or any of the many fine podcast outlets you choose to visit.
ForThe Perfect Scam, I’m Will Johnson.
END OF TRANSCRIPT
Alex Goldman is the host of the Reply All podcast.
Alex goes on a deep dive into the shady world of call centers and makes some startling discoveries.
TIP:Never interact with scammers.
Dont take a stab at investigate on your own or take the law in your own hands.
Leave this to the police and investigators who are properly trained.
Always independently verify any email address and phone number provided.
